St Paul and King's

[veryworriedmum]

My child is in year 5 and we have been in the UK for less than a year. We searched for a lot of websites and it seems the academic ranking of the 2 is quite similar, St Paul's may be higher overall but in some years King's is higher. Also, their Oxbridge acceptance seems quite similar, St Paul may be only marginally better and sent a bit more to US colleges.

However, among our friends, not just foreigners like us but also locals, they seem to have a firm pecking order in mind: Westminster, St Paul, King's, and almost all in this order, with some considering the gap between Westminster and St Paul only marginal while the gap between St Paul and King's much wider and some even consider King's half a notch below. All these don't quite match the academic results (A Level and GCSE) I saw on the school websites.

Can someone provide any insights? We are still new to the country and are in the learning process. I know the topic may be a bit sensitive to some, so I am equally happy if comments are provided via private messages to me.

My DS is at SP and I can't quite work out the SP vs Kings thing myself! Definitely agree a lot of Wimbledon parents seem to come to SP despite living next door to Kings. However, everyone at Kings seems to love it and be very happy with their choice. Interestingly, I have noticed a trend for several families with 2 boys (in both these cases the parents live near Wimbledon), who put the first son in SP but are putting the second son in Kings (in one case even moving him from SP. The reason given is that Kings apparently is 'a bit softer' in terms of environment for the children, and academically whilst very strong, the kids are not quite so exceptional. (There are exams at the end of every year from age about 9, and it's not much fun for children who are academically strong to find themselves 'below the year average' on pretty much all subjects.... and this happens to many). I also think SP is more focused on the sporting side, so this may be a factor.
My son is very happy there but we are very local. I certainly wouldn't drive across London for this - some families come from Dulwich and the likes which I personally think is madness. Pick a good school that is CLOSE to where you live, it will make a huge difference to your child's life (they will need to be going there 6 days a week with all the sports fixtures!) - and won't make any difference to the outcome. As others have said, the universities now are more likely to discriminate AGAINST these candidates (50% of SP now going to US universities as they can't get into Oxbridge now, however academically deserving they are....)... and most top firms see the CVs blind, with no indication of the school. I think the brand name has value in Asia... but not in the UK any more, and in Europe no-one has ever heard of these schools, it's all about the University (I can't comment on the US, I don't know about them).

There is a St Paul school in new Hampshire, also an "elite/prestigious" private school.

"agree a lot of Wimbledon parents seem to come to SP despite living next door to Kings"

I am interesred in what areas in London will exposed more to such private school pecking order bubble in general?

I think a lot of SW London Preps does, and to some extend North /NW London too but probably less so. Also inside the circle of Asian (esp East Asian) and upper class white parents.

Not sure how true it is but a lot of parents seems to say that Westminster and kings A level and university destination are uplifted as girls come in sixth form at both schools.

It is possible especially for humanities subjects especially for private schools. In general boys are more likely to take up STEM subjects which has to compete with a large group of high performing state grammars and Sixth forms which are getting more competitive every year.

For girls, it is the humanities subjects (MFL Classics or even Theology) that traditionally still have taught advantage in private sectors, and proportionally less competition with state sector schools. And league table results, if behind the scene look at details will tell you the story.

Not sure I completely understand the question, but the families at SP are :

1. Asian origin (at least half the class if not 3/4 are either south east Asian - this is the majority - or Asian origin).
2. 'White mix' (Germans, Russians, Americans - and usually parents are 2 different nationalities, eg Italian-Russian, or German-American or Swiss-British). Literally only about 3 children per class are 100% white British, and they are not really upper class, more high achieving professionals (parents are barristers or partners in law firms or investment bankers basically).

Where they live: South West London (Barnes Putney Richmond Chiswick Wimbledon etc), but a lot in Holland Park/Kensington/Chelsea, and also a lot in North London (St John's Wood etc).

@CocoC thanks, your description probably match some of my observations.

And probably not upper class, middle upper is a better description.

"a lot in North London (St John's Wood etc)"

Commute from Nw8 to Barnes will take over an hour on a good London morning work day. I'm sure a lot of sporty SP boys but that is a fairly long trekking.

Agreed, sps is not a school for upper-class boys, upper-class boys, go to boarding schools – Eton, Harrow, Wellington, Milton Abbey, Millfield, depending how academic they are. Upper-middle-class Brits with a lot of money, but the vast majority of parents are international and often super rich (exactly the same as every private London day school nothing specific to sps)

It is unlikely that lots of upper class white British can get into the like of SP. The academic hurdle is too high. Hardly any in this group can get through. They go to Eton and Harrow. Firstly, they prefer boarding, and secondly the academic hurdle is much lower.

As to demographics, about 1/3 Asians (with a sizeable East Asians portion, like Westminster, and unlike many other top London schools or grammars), about half white British and the rest are mainly Europeans.

Though SP offers partial boarding option from year 9.

DS, grown up now, was very happy at KCS. We had the end of the Evans' reigns and the start to middle of Halls'.

The school had likely changed since our boy left 10 years ago. We lived in Putney when the choice was made.

It was made because firstly, the journey was slightly easier for ds and for me/my commute, secondly, we liked the feel of the school (and suspected dd would end up at school in Putney, Wimbledon or Surbiton - definitely not spgs) and thirdly because ds liked it best.

@veryworriedmum may I respectfully suggest that the most important person you listen to is your son.

I agree, it’s madness. SP has a vast network of minibuses that come from across London, ferrying the boys in and out (at least till age 13 - not sure what happens after that).
So the boys are not exercising their sporting muscles :)), they are sitting in traffic, presumably on their phones/school ipads!!

Personally I have always wondered how so many of them are so good at music (some of the east Asian kids are absolutely exceptional), when so much of their day ia wasted like this, not sure when they fit the practice in! 😀

This thread is really interesting. I was wondering why there was a lack of British White at these schools and didn't know how to phrase my question without coming across as racist!

10-15 years ago, British white were the majority.

Because it is not true. May be someone who can't get into these schools, or who doesn't want others to apply?

They do. Currently with Hammersmith Bridge closes it’s 50mins, otherwise it would be 35 mins. Remember once you are past Baker Street and on the Westway you are opposite to the traffic.

It is a kura bus not an uber. Based on the timetable in the school website it takes 55 mins from St John wood to the junior school. It doesn't account for the time the boys from home to the bus stop via various commute methods.

Based on my experience even with Hammersmith bridge open ( in 10 years time?) it will take longer than 50 mins.

Well from experience of having taken the bus in the early 90s, my stop was Park Road….it took around. 35/40 mins.
i loved the bus…especially when you also shared it with SPGS….but I was in the senior school…..the majority of the boys were on Golders Green / Finchley….didn’t seem am issue back then.

This thread!!! Wow!

OP, of course it’s confusing and worrying to enter a wholly new education system. Many years ago I entered a wholly different education system for myself as a young adult and it was baffling! And of course you want the best for your child.

My 3 children are in a great school, but out of London, but most of our friends are still in the SW London or NW London independent school system. Our eldest and all her peers are in year 7, so just put the other side of 11+.

Also DH is a teacher in a selective independent school….

My thoughts:

• Given (from what you say) your child’s academic potential, the school (out of the choices of amazing schools you mention) won’t be the main factor in university / exam success. In particular, university entry is not just grades…. The key factor in educational attainment is parental education levels and your input (wide ranging discussions over dinner, support with homework and with overall mental wellbeing etc), and home life / security / stability (according to teacher DH - he lectures on improving attainment fir boys!).

• All the “top” London schools are amazing. You need to look beyond exam results and think about what genuinely suits your child best. Single sex or co-Ed (I absolutely wanted co-Ed)? Sporty (eg at Westminster, sport is minimal and optional - DH is a sports teacher who often interacts with his equivalents at Westminster!), which school offers more pastoral support, which is the easier commute (important- even out if London this was key for me as mine all play instruments and do other things out of school) etc etc?

• If you list the top, say, 6 or 7 commuterable schools (say within 45 mins) near you, given where you are in London, chances are your child would do very well at any of those schools, so pick the one he likes best!! My choice was out of 2 - you have lots of choice in London!!

• Given his age now, focus on (hopefully relaxed-ish!) tutoring for the 11+ to give him / you the best choices.

Don’t worry too much !

Does the ‘not true’ apply to my comments ? I am a current parent at the school !
As I said, I am not criticizing the school or the pupil intake (interesting that is how you took it) - I am merely observing and describing.
My son is very happy at SP - I am just saying I don’t think it is worth driving across London for, as I think there are other schools which can deliver similar benefits and results….. and the ‘brand name’ benefits are not what they were, except possibly in Asia.

“except possibly in Asia“

Not sure it has brand name benefits in Asia either, it is a vanity objective.

What's "not true"?

The majority of dc at SPS and I'd be sure virtually any London private school don't have two British parents. That's not racist it's just truth. I speak as someone who is in a minority of being in a British couple and I've done the numbers. It's not a criticism in the slightest, it just reflects the way moneyed London is. I LOVE the fact my dc have friends from all over the world

Don't pay too much attention to league table position or pecking order. Your child is an individual. Visit the schools (not just the "top 3"). Talk to the staff and kids. Get a feel for the ethos. Better still, walk past when the kids are coming out (not on the open day). That can be an eye-opener for behaviour and language.

Single sex schools are a peculiarly British disease, as are boarding schools. They lead to damaged individuals who can't relate to the opposite sex and who have higher rates of divorce and mental health issues. Not always, but that's the trend. FWIW I would seriously consider co-ed alternatives e.g. Latymer Upper, Alleyns.

A short commute to school and local friends can make an immense difference to quality of life. Trailing across town is absolutely not worth it - if a kid is bright enough to get into any of these schools, they'll get straight A-stars when the time comes if they work.

The days of the top few schools getting half their kids into Oxbridge are gone, much to those schools' chagrin. Those who pre-pay for privilege may find they haven't bought what they've expected.

Some of the most entitled, obnoxious individuals I ever worked with went to some of these big name schools, notably Westminster - I wouldn't send my dog there.

Agree with poster above re Oxbridge. My understanding is 50% of leavers from these schools are now going international, mainly to the US as they are simply finding it impossible to get into the top British universities (and since they are ‘global citizens’ that is something they are prepared to do).
Also bear in mind it is hard to stand out from peers in these schools. What would have been a ‘leading light’ at a minor school will come across as distinctly average in this environment. I have seen this happen quite a bit. The school does not encourage academic comparisons or competition but the children are not blind. In some cases, it can actually affect their self confidence to an extent.