St Paul and King's

[veryworriedmum]

My child is in year 5 and we have been in the UK for less than a year. We searched for a lot of websites and it seems the academic ranking of the 2 is quite similar, St Paul's may be higher overall but in some years King's is higher. Also, their Oxbridge acceptance seems quite similar, St Paul may be only marginally better and sent a bit more to US colleges.

However, among our friends, not just foreigners like us but also locals, they seem to have a firm pecking order in mind: Westminster, St Paul, King's, and almost all in this order, with some considering the gap between Westminster and St Paul only marginal while the gap between St Paul and King's much wider and some even consider King's half a notch below. All these don't quite match the academic results (A Level and GCSE) I saw on the school websites.

Can someone provide any insights? We are still new to the country and are in the learning process. I know the topic may be a bit sensitive to some, so I am equally happy if comments are provided via private messages to me.

I withdrew from an interview at St Pauls a few years back because of the behaviour and attitude of the students I saw.

I had never heard of the school until I saw the job ad, I didn't realise what type of school it was.

@ChocChipHandbag Thankyou for that very thoughtful post which encapsulates exactly why we chose the school we did for our DS. It’s not the destination, it’s the journey.

Agree. Often, parents focus too much on school ranking vs what the school is really like. You need to ask deep questions at school visits and talk to as many people as possible in order to find out what the school is like and whether it matches with your child's character.

There are many good independent schools. Not forgetting City, UCS, Highgate etc….

But St Paul’s and Westminster, have been…are….and will always be the top 2.
They are internationally renowned, sought after, have the prestige. It’s just what it is, they are the hardest to get into as well.
they may not be right for everyone, but nevertheless they are the top 2.

I think ‘which is top?’ begs the question ‘what for?’

Does it have the best ‘absolute’ results? Or the best ‘progress’ for each pupil?

Does it have ‘the best admission statistics for one or two universities’ or does it have ‘the best reputation fir getting every child onto the best fit next step for them’?

Does it have ‘the best results in a few subjects’ or ‘the widest possible spread of subjects, all taught well’?

Does it have ‘teachers who drill children to get the best results’ or ‘a very high proportion of inspiring and exciting teachers’?

Does it produce ‘leavers who have the best exam results’ or ‘leavers who are well rounded, balanced, happy, kind and generous, and have good relationships with each other, adults and the opposite sex’?

If you like everything about the leavers a school produces (not just their results and destinations), you like the staff that you meet, you like the feel of the school as you go round, your child is excited to join it and you feel yourself to be in alignment with the values of the school, then go for it. It is ‘the best’ for you.

@cantkeepawayforever

Does it produce ‘leavers who have the best exam results’ or ‘leavers who are well rounded, balanced, happy, kind and generous, and have good relationships with each other, adults and the opposite sex’?

Very wise words...( all of it but particularly this)

There might be perceived pecking order of prestigious for these schools, especially in East/South Asia world where the obsession is further exaggerated by the International education agent/tutoring business.

However, unlike Oxbridge over other universities (sickingly) , the "pecking order" of these private school badge bear zero value for the kids life in 10 years time. The name of KCS/Westminster/SPS/Winchester/Highgate etc will just be blended into the same school category for the previlige few by the society (and Eton is even a "dirty" word now).

In the long term it is the education experience for the kids that matters not the name. Parents have the privilege to choose between these private schools should focus on that but not the useless short-lived prestigious .

Please don't be very worried - they're all great schools! The differences in attainment are tiny. You need to see which your ds gets into first, but honestly if offered all three go for the one closest to you - it's madness to do a long journey if you have one of them close by.

It’s an interesting one since for several years, kings Wimbledon has been the TOP boys and co-Ed school.

This year, St Paul’s boys is the top boys. But, for whatever reason, KCS tends not to shout its achievement, so maybe people don’t always realise how it has been the highest achieving boys’ school (several on this thread don’t).

I do agree that for name recognition it is Westminster, St Paul’s, and outside London, Eton (the latter is much further down the table though) and rugby (even further down). Of course, if you want the very best school, you want St Paul’s girls…

Anyway, there is nothing in it between any of 3 you mention. I made our decision based on LOCATION. being near the school is such a great choice, for friendships, for the Saturday sport, for the after school events. (Saturday school, too, for Westminster; though boarding may be the answer at that school, to get around the location issue.)

But these schools are all incredibly over subscribed, so manage your child’s expectations. They are ALL fast paced, and ALL full of bright kids. I would have hated it! If your child just soaks up information, enjoys learning, is super fast at maths, has brilliant vocab, grammar etc, all are great. Also it helps to love sport, and to be quite alpha, or extrovert; though there are introverts who are bad at sport at all!

ref oxbridge, this is NOT the be all and end all (I’m an oxbridge grad, so I’m not being mean about oxbridge) but attitudes are changing and there are many other places that might suit my (very quick!) son better (I’m not being biased, he won an 11+ academic scholarship, to be clear). Anyway, if he chose one of those other places (eg LSE) rather than say oxford, that would be one less person on the school’s list. Those lists don’t always tell the full story.

attitudes towards secondary schools are changing faster than the attitudes towards the stereotype towards university.

not sure..loin the City, in law firms, in big corporates…the top 2 schools still stand out on a CV. It’s a prestige thing, has been and always will be….

I know many lawyers for one who would actively mark down a candidate who's attended a big name school (or university). It's all about diversity now.

I’d really disagree. So much more emphasis on having “normal” people who can converse well with clients etc. Where I worked, anyone who went to Oxbridge or a top school was really pushed as they were concerned that they lived in libraries and wouldn’t survive in the real world.

@Caps0218 for oxbridge yes, but no body in the city bother to look at Westminster/SPS in your CV (do they ever put the highschool in the CV nowadays?) - speaking from my own experience in the city.

That is why I say nowadays attitudes towards secondary school is changing faster than university...

DH is involved in recruitment at a 'top' law firm. He says the 'top' schools mean nothing these days in terms of recruitment. They wouldn't be actively discriminated against but it wouldn't do them any favours. Schools have generally been removed from any CV's he sees anyway but says that candidates often manage to mention it in interviews!

@veryworriedmum OP: From our own experience and that of our friends, among the London schools, for boys, Westminster is the most difficult to get into, followed by St Paul's, and then followed by King's, and then City, and then schools like Hampton, LU, Habs, Highgate etc. We got King's (and all schools below it), waitlisted for St Paul, and rejected by Westminster. It is roughly the same order in terms of prestige and academic attainment. Outside of London and in particular outside of the UK, except for Eton which is better known, it seems only Westminster and St Paul's are names that are more broadly known. I suppose this is the information you want to know (or already knew and just want confirmation).

OP: Not my own experience, among my acquaintances, in the recent years (including this year) QE boys are more difficult to get into compared to Westminister upper in London. So not sure why this school is not even in the pecking order 😅

Fortunately, King's is our first choice, being closer, more suited for our non-sporty boy, and less aggressive parents. The gap is not that big and is mainly due to the prestige of the name, resulting in more boys traveling long distance to St Paul's and even more to Westminster, but still, most will choose the closer and more local option.

Doesn't always work- our friends live opposite Kings but their DS didn't even get an interview so he travels to St Paul's every day!

Hi OP. British schools are a minefield, aren't they, but glad your DS has settled and is predicted to do so well!

My DS got a place at Westminster but we turned it down as we wanted something closer (and he's at neither of the other schools mentioned). He passed super selective grammar schools and had a couple of scholarships from other well-regarded indies but, in the end, we felt it was best to be close to the school, for friendships but also because we feel that he will probably do OK in any school (hopefully!).

If it helps, I wonder whether the reason Westminster is seen as 'the top' school (and it's all subjective to an extent) is that it was always the school that produced not only the most Oxbridge acceptances but also they have something called 'the royal dissent'. I.e. they are (supposedly) meant to follow the lead of the boys and so do not stay strictly to the curriculum but venture where the questions of their inquisitive boys take them so, in a sense, is probably more similar to a university environment or, indeed, the system at Ox/Cambs.

If it helps, lots of DS's mates applied to Westminster and they are very bright and especially so in maths and sciences. However, I feel that English (and VR) is what set those apart who were admitted to Westminster.

So, if I were you, I would really focus on comprehension and vocabulary, as I'm sure your DS is already very strong in maths. I also think that the boys who are admitted are more than just 'maths/science geeks' (I think) but they are the kind of kid who could talk to adults about almost anything and have an opinion (and not from being tutored for the interview). There are 1,000s of kids good at maths/NVR!

I would also recommend you start with Atom and an 11+ tutor or go through the CGP books (English/Maths/Verbal Reasoning and NVR).

Good luck!

This!

@veryworriedmum OP: if you are targeting these schools, you need to understand that for both Westminster and SP, they only admit some 30 boys in year 7, as the main entry point is year 9 (some 70-80 boys). The 11+ entry for both is mainly for state school boys. Only a few prep school boys are admitted at this entry point and they are mostly preps that end in year 6, who I presume need to perform very well. Boys from prep schools that end in year 8 were rarely admitted at this point (and SP explicitly mentions on the website that these boys are strongly recommended to apply for 13+), and presumably, they need to perform extremely well to cross this hurdle. If your prep ends in year 8, I also suggest you apply 13+ (as from boys I know, the success rate for prep school boys is much higher at 13+).

For King's, it admits 60 in year 7 and 30 in year 9. But then fewer apply in year 9 and so I guess the odd is similar. If you want to leave the prep after year 6, you can try 11+ for King's.

Honestly, very few people in the UK, and almost no-one outside the UK, have heard of either. The situation isn't nearly comparable to Oxbridge vs the rest in university terms. Even amongst people who've heard of both, I should think that many would name at least one other school if asked to think of a 'top two'.

Interesting to read this and hadn't realised how few boys are admitted for Y7 entry!

My DS was offered a place in the first 11+ (Y7 entry) round. He was at an independent, not prep, school with both junior/senior schools). We reluctantly turned it down as DS didn't want to travel for 1H and preferred a school closer to home and where he would make local friends.

This is remarkable!