Active discussions

Meet the Other Phone. Only the apps you allow.

Meet the Other Phone.
Only the apps you allow.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Talk
Secondary education

Connect with other parents whose children are starting secondary school on this forum.

Original poster

General Appeal questions

158 replies

JM231 · 03/04/2023 18:01

Afternoon,

Sorry as i know there are a lot of appeal chats happening but I had a few questions regarding appealing in general that I didnit see being covered in other chats - if anyone could help, it would be much appreciated!

  1. I know you cant add additional evidence after the letter but do you have to play all your cards/arguments in the letter? My concern is that it will allow the school to see and prepare responses a long time in advance?

  2. i understand we see the Admission authority's case 7 days before the hearing but when do they see ours? as we have to send our appeal to the school in April doesn't that allow then an unfair advantage to plan the responses?

  3. When arguing on grounds of subjects/clubs that the school offer that are not offered elsewhere - would A-Level choices be applicable for a year 7 appeal or only GCSE options?

  4. There is a lot of info regarding the strength of the LA's case in other threads - but surely 99% of the time their argument is simply " we are full". Maybe its my ignorance but what else would they bring to the table?

All time and help is much appreciated.

OP posts:
PatriciaHolm · 03/04/2023 18:18

I know you cant add additional evidence after the letter but do you have to play all your cards/arguments in the letter? My concern is that it will allow the school to see and prepare responses a long time in advance?
i understand we see the Admission authority's case 7 days before the hearing but when do they see ours? as we have to send our appeal to the school in April doesn't that allow then an unfair advantage to plan the responses?

This not a court of law. Realistically, the school will offer the same defence to all appeals, with normally a cover letter that explains the specific reason you didn't get a place - live further out than the most distant place, for example. They don't have someone sitting down and forensically going through each case point by point. Their basic case will be to argue why they are full and cannot take another pupil.

Sometimes they may respond to a specific point - they may say, for example, that you are appealing because the school offers dance GCSE, but they may reply that there is no guarantee this will be offered at the relevant point. They are not going to be coming up with responses trying to catch you out.

You, and they, may both ask questions about the other's case at appeal.

Please don't offer any evidence at appeal that you have not offered already; panels do not have to accept it. You can summarise your points in your submitted appeal and expand on the day if you wish, though if something untoward happens and the appeal ends up being heard on paper it's best to have submitted everything (it also gives the panel time to read and digest your arguments).

There is nothing to be gained by trying to spring an argument on the panel/authority on the day.

When arguing on grounds of subjects/clubs that the school offer that are not offered elsewhere - would A-Level choices be applicable for a year 7 appeal or only GCSE options?

Not really - even GCSEs are sometimes a bit of a stretch as they won't be relevant for 3 years or so and things change, especially with niche GCSEs that might not have much of an uptake. Focus as much as you can on things that are relevant now.

There is a lot of info regarding the strength of the LA's case in other threads - but surely 99% of the time their argument is simply " we are full". Maybe its my ignorance but what else would they bring to the table?

An admissions' authorities case will often use data in terms of size of classrooms, halls, science blocks etc to show that not only are they technically full in the sense they are up to (or over) PAN, but that physically they cannot fit any more pupils in rooms. They may also show SEN/EHCP data that suggest resources are already stretched, and say things such as lunches have to be staggered, it's not possible to have an all-school assembly, etc. They may refer to overcrowded corridors, no places for bags/lockers, etc etc.

Original poster
JM231 · 03/04/2023 18:23

Thank you @PatriciaHolm for the quick and thorough reply - genuinely very much appreciated.

In terms of our appeal we have based around 1 strong (in our opinion) argument. However, it is worth including slightly weaker arguments or could that detract from the main point? - i guess in school speak - is their negative marking?

OP posts:
PanelChair · 03/04/2023 18:33

I can’t add much to PatriciaHolm’s comprehensive reply.

The school/LEA usually presents very broad arguments for why they cannot accept any pupils beyond PAN. It’s quite impersonal in that sense.

If you are arguing about subjects, explain (as far as you can) why that subject is relevant or of interest to your child. If (say) you’re arguing that your child needs a place in this school because it’s the only one in the area offering Japanese, it will be more persuasive if you can show that your child has already done a Saturday course etc. Otherwise, it may sound as if you’re latched onto the idea of studying Japanese because you spotted it in the prospectus.

PanelChair · 03/04/2023 18:35

And no, there’s no negative marking. If your case based on the main argument is borderline, it may be the additional arguments that tip you over into winning.

Original poster
JM231 · 03/04/2023 19:10

Thanks again @PanelChair and @PatriciaHolm

One more question if thats ok - I appreciate I need to not only demonstrate why my child needs a place but also why the school can take extra children (without detriment to other children). However, if you can successfully and clearly show the school is not full (not sure how im going to do that as yet) then could you win on a slightly weaker argument of needs? or do they both independently have to be strong and meet a particular threshold?

OP posts:
PatriciaHolm · 03/04/2023 19:56

It's a balancing act.

If the school's argument is weak, in the sense that it fail to demonstrate that there would be significant prejudice in the admittance of one or more pupils, then the panel will look at the appeals in that light; the panel are balancing the prejudice to the school of admitting another pupil vs the prejudice to the child of not attending. If the prejudice to the school is deemed pretty low, then the prejudice to the child just needs to outweigh that.

However, in the case of multiple appeals for the same school, if the panel finds there are more cases which outweigh prejudice than the school can admit, it would then compare the cases and uphold those with the strongest cases for admission.

Itmakesnosense · 03/04/2023 20:14

@PatriciaHolm @PanelChair how much time does each parent get at the 2 stage appeal hearing? @JM231 sorry to jump on your thread.

PatriciaHolm · 03/04/2023 21:13

@Itmakesnosense You will get the time you need. You shouldn't be constrained to a specific length of time; that said, the chair will politely keep the meeting to relevant points, and shouldn't allow detours into irrelevancy or lots of repetition.

sylentwidnes · 03/04/2023 23:10

My concern is that it will allow the school to see and prepare responses a long time in advance?

The school sees your letter as soon as you lodge your appeal, or at least as soon as it is processed. Remember, you only have one appeal to prepare for, but they may have several (a dozen in our case). It is often a senior teacher or volunteer school governor who has to give up time to prepare for appeals - so the longer the better.

You need to stop seeing it as an adversarial process. The school has an admissions policy, and you missed out, but that wasn't personal. Even if you have the strongest appeal case in the world, the school is not allowed to express support for you at the hearing - it will simply put an objective case for being full because, if it doesn't, it potentially opens the flood gates to everyone, not just you, and then other children's education will suffer. If your case is particularly strong then you may be succesful, but if so, don't assume that the school's presenting officer will be annoyed by it - they may be discretely rooting for you.

MarchingFrogs · 04/04/2023 00:09

However, if you can successfully and clearly show the school is not full (not sure how im going to do that as yet)...

Remember that the appeal is for a place in a specific year group and that if the relevant year group is already at PAN, then it is 'full' for the purposes of turning applicants down.

Presumably you don't mean that you think you can show that the school is under PAN in your year group? They can't have people needing to appeal if it is, unless it's a grammar school which ran out of qualified applicants before reaching PAN?

lanthanum · 04/04/2023 11:13

Sometimes people argue that the school can take more than the PAN by pointing out previous year groups where this has happened.

The PAN is often set at a multiple of 30. In practice, most classrooms I've worked in have been equipped for 32, so there is a little bit of slack to go over PAN (particularly if all classes are the same size). However if the practical rooms can only hold 24, then they might reasonably argue that they cannot take more than 120 because of the capacity there - but perhaps not if you can say "but you've got 123 in year 9".

Original poster
JM231 · 04/04/2023 15:19

thanks all for you help so far

Has anyone experienced appealing against 2 schools that are in the same MAT? as the AA will be the same for each it seems a bit disingenuous to say on both that "this is the only school for x"? also would that work against you?

Is it possible the appeal panel is the same for both and therefore lose value in what you are saying?

OP posts:
sylentwidnes · 04/04/2023 15:22

Only primary schools work in multiples of 30, because their form groups are generally the same as their teaching groups. Secondary schools are different - they tend to have smaller average class sizes so they can plan for setting (including small intervention groups) and options classes with variable numbers when they reach Year 10.

PatriciaHolm · 04/04/2023 15:41

JM231 · 04/04/2023 15:19

thanks all for you help so far

Has anyone experienced appealing against 2 schools that are in the same MAT? as the AA will be the same for each it seems a bit disingenuous to say on both that "this is the only school for x"? also would that work against you?

Is it possible the appeal panel is the same for both and therefore lose value in what you are saying?

Appealing for more than one school is pretty normal, don't worry.

You don't have to prove that this is the only school that would suit in order to win, just that the detriment to the school of taking another pupil is less than the detriment to the child of not attending. In cases of where there is medical support evidence, its is much stronger as evidence if it says that this is the only school can provide the support required, but it is not required that you prove this is the only school that would suit in order to win an appeal. Plenty of appeals win without going that far.

It's unlikely you would see the exact same panel, as they should be independent of the school. You may have a panelist in common possibly, but they should treat each appeal seperately and not bring in any knowledge from another appeal.

PatriciaHolm · 04/04/2023 15:44

sylentwidnes · 04/04/2023 15:22

Only primary schools work in multiples of 30, because their form groups are generally the same as their teaching groups. Secondary schools are different - they tend to have smaller average class sizes so they can plan for setting (including small intervention groups) and options classes with variable numbers when they reach Year 10.

Plenty of secondaries organise Year 7 mostly in tutor groups of 30 though - many will teach in those groups, with possible exception for maths, for Year 7 at least. Many schools have PANs that are a multiple of 30 still in secondary and they will continue to argue that rooms are not big enough etc because the younger students remain in tutor groups of 30 most of the time. The appeal being discusses here is Year 7 so it may well still be relevant.

Many schools do split earlier, but equally many don't.

sylentwidnes · 04/04/2023 15:50

PatriciaHolm · 04/04/2023 15:44

Plenty of secondaries organise Year 7 mostly in tutor groups of 30 though - many will teach in those groups, with possible exception for maths, for Year 7 at least. Many schools have PANs that are a multiple of 30 still in secondary and they will continue to argue that rooms are not big enough etc because the younger students remain in tutor groups of 30 most of the time. The appeal being discusses here is Year 7 so it may well still be relevant.

Many schools do split earlier, but equally many don't.

Show quote history

Some may do, but my point is that those that deliberately plan for fewer than 30 per class are still able to succesfully argue that they are full.

Original poster
JM231 · 04/04/2023 20:47

again thanks all for your quick and very helpful responses.

Does anyone have any advice about best sources of data regarding current pupil numbers by year?

OP posts:
sylentwidnes · 04/04/2023 20:59

The school's presenting officer should put it in their statement. If not, you can ask them.

The latest officially published data is the school census from Jan 2022 (published in June 2022), which will obviously be out of date by now. The Jan 2023 data will be published in June 2023.

PatriciaHolm · 04/04/2023 20:59

JM231 · 04/04/2023 20:47

again thanks all for your quick and very helpful responses.

Does anyone have any advice about best sources of data regarding current pupil numbers by year?

Just ask the school. They have to provide you will all the relevant information you need.

Original poster
JM231 · 04/04/2023 21:01

Thanks @PatriciaHolm
Do i have to say its for an appeal? would it be the school or the trust (who are the admission authority)?

OP posts:
PatriciaHolm · 04/04/2023 21:06

JM231 · 04/04/2023 21:01

Thanks @PatriciaHolm
Do i have to say its for an appeal? would it be the school or the trust (who are the admission authority)?

Tell them it's for an appeal, the appeal code makes it very clear that they must comply with reasonable requests for information for an appeal.

I would start with the school, but they may refer you to the Trust.

Original poster
JM231 · 04/04/2023 21:07

thanks @PatriciaHolm for your help

OP posts:
Original poster
JM231 · 05/04/2023 11:55

Does anyone have any advice about how you deal with comments regarding the allocated school? I’m acutely aware that you are arguing for a school and not against one. I’m also aware that it would look bad to criticise a school.

However, by saying school x offers ABC in terms of subject/clubs you have to say that school y does not?

also if there is a genuine reason why you believe your child shouldn’t go to a certain school should you reference it? (One that isn’t criticising the school as such but saying that this school is great but for these reasons not appropriate for my child) Is that ok?

OP posts:
PanelChair · 05/04/2023 12:05

It’s fine to make a comparison between what’s on offer at each school, to say (for example) that your child is keen on chess, the preferred school has a chess club but the allocated school doesn’t. What’s not advisable - firstly because it doesn’t provide any basis for the panel to allow the appeal and secondly because for all you know panel members have children at the school - is to say something along the lines of the allocated school is awful, full of awful children, and you don’t want yours to go there.

PatriciaHolm · 05/04/2023 14:37

Agree with Panelchair - drawing comparisons in terms of what the appeal school offers vs what the offered school doesn't is fine. Being negative about the offered school is not.

In terms of a reason not to want a school, there are few things that are relevant there tbh. Appealants will often say, for example, they don't want an all girls/boys school, or a mixed sex one, or a religious one, or a non-religious one, etc etc. None of that is relevant - they are preferences rather than needs.