General Appeal questions

[JM231]

Afternoon,

Sorry as i know there are a lot of appeal chats happening but I had a few questions regarding appealing in general that I didnit see being covered in other chats - if anyone could help, it would be much appreciated!

1. I know you cant add additional evidence after the letter but do you have to play all your cards/arguments in the letter? My concern is that it will allow the school to see and prepare responses a long time in advance?

2. i understand we see the Admission authority's case 7 days before the hearing but when do they see ours? as we have to send our appeal to the school in April doesn't that allow then an unfair advantage to plan the responses?

3. When arguing on grounds of subjects/clubs that the school offer that are not offered elsewhere - would A-Level choices be applicable for a year 7 appeal or only GCSE options?

4. There is a lot of info regarding the strength of the LA's case in other threads - but surely 99% of the time their argument is simply " we are full". Maybe its my ignorance but what else would they bring to the table?

All time and help is much appreciated.

For single appeals, we discuss immediately afterwards and make a collective decision then.

For multiple appeals for the same school, we wait until we have heard all the appeals and then discuss each appeal and make individual decisions then. This will normally take place at the end of the last day of the appeals.

Normally what happens in my LA is that at the end of the appeal, the appellant and Admissions Authority leaves the room and we have a quick chat to make sure we haven't missed anything and don't need anything else from them. If we are happy we don't, which is normally the case, they are free to go.

Thanks very much for the quick responses - do I have the right/are able to find out how many appeals are being heard?

I’m sure you could ask the clerk to the appeals panel.

yes, do ask. It's not a secret. Often stage one - the general case for the school - is held together for all appellants anyway so it's obvious.

Thanks
@PatriciaHolm so are you saying all appealents are together at the same time, we all hear the schools case (as it’s 99% the same to prevent repetition) and then we come back/or wait for our slot?

I'm more interested to know how many they have agreed in the past! Though I'm sure it's similar to investments in that that past performance is not an indication of what will happen in the future! My older daughter's school actually details the number of appeals and how many were successful on their admissions page, but school we are appealing for doesn't (my son can't go to same school as it is all girls).
I found out today that my appeal is likely to be the week before half term. As the decision is meant to be communicated witin 5 "school" days presumably that means it could be nearly a fortnight before we hear? 😬

Sometimes yes - if there a a number of appeals for the same school, then some LAs will do the first stage, that of the school's general case that it is full and cannot take any more pupils, no matter who they are, as a grouped stage with all appellants in attendance. You can still ask questions, and the panel will do so too.

Then the panel make a decision as to whether the school has made it's case that it is full and absolutely cannot take any more pupils. If it has (rare) then the process ends there, no individual appeals are heard. If not, (usually), then the individual appeals progress. You should be given a specific time slot for your appeal.

As you say, past performance does not indicate future performance ;-) On average around 20% of secondary appeals are won, though that will differ by school of course. It doesn't really matter how many have been previously won though, as you have no idea what the cases were that won, and the school's case may differ in strength over time.

In terms of time, it could be that long, but my LA would aim to get a quick decision letter out to you either the day of the appeal or the day after, so hopefully not that long.

Just as PatriciaHolm says, the number of appeals won and lost in previous years tells you almost nothing about your own chance of success. A common misunderstanding is that an appeal being allowed in the past creates a precedent for allowing yours, but it doesn’t work like that. Each appeal is determined on its own merits, according to the balance of prejudice.

Thanks @PatriciaHolm

so considering we are “potentially” competing with each other for a limited number of appeal spaces. If I have a strong (in my opinion) case that the school can take more then the other appealants will benefit? Even if they haven’t built a case?

@JM231 Not sure if you've seen this post https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/secondary/4772369-school-appealswaiting-list?reply=125359829 but @schooladmission says that one year a school put a really weak argument forward and so panel agreed all appeals that year "even the one where the Mum said that said she really wanted X Catholic school down the road but thought she may as well appeal for this one too". So everyone benefited on that occasion. That one made me intrigued though as a friend of mine appealed for the school I am now appealing for, and was successful, but wanted the Catholic school down the road - I asked her about the appeal and she said the Head was really weak on the day - so that got me to thinking that maybe it was the same school! I hope not, as they may have tightened up their arguments as a result!

Yes, if you convince the panel that the school can take more pupils, that will be taken into account for all cases, not just yours. That is one of the reasons the panel aren't allowed to make any decisions until they have heard all the cases.

Cheers @SuperSue77 will take a look

I doubt it was the same one - my example was a few years ago when I was shadowing for my current role. That one wasn't presented by the Head, it was the colleague I was shadowing.

The Academy where the Head said they had spaces and everyone won was more recent, but I wasn't actually present as the LA was not involved.

How many appeals are heard in a day? For Academies who presents the case for the School?

My school has 12 appeals scheduled over 3 days, so 4 a day.

For academies presenting officers are usually senior leaders, or members of the school's governing body.

... though, thinking about it, they will probably schedule part 1 for the first morning for all applicants, then do the 12 "part 2" sessions over the next two days, then have their deliberation on the afternoon of day 3. (I don't have the detailed timetable yet).

... some may withdraw if they got a place in the second round of offers. 🤞

@sylentwidnes can I ask what PAN your school is? The one I am appealing for is 240. My daughter’s school, which is also 240 had 19 last year, but only 7 the year before.

I’ve been told provisional dates are 22-25 May and am now wondering if that means they actually plan to hold them across 4 days (I initially assumed it was a range from which they’d choose a day!) and so maybe they have around 16 of us appealing.

150

I think the one am appealing to has multiple appeals. 1st stage meeting is early next month with the 2nd stage in mid July. There is almost a 2 month gap between the 2 meetings with the second one the week before schools close for summer holidays. By the time the second stage meeting comes round we may have got a place from the waiting list(currently no.13).

16 would be perfectly possible for a very popular, oversubscribed school - I think my LA has at least 2 schools which need 4 days for appeals this year.

By the time the second stage meeting comes round we may have got a place from the waiting list(currently no.13).

If you (or anyone) does, please do officially withdraw from the appeal! I can't count the number of times I've sat twiddling my thumbs waiting for a parent who doesn't turn up, but who hasn't notified the LA that they aren't...!

Hi

what are the rules on late evidence.

If you have some evidence not ready by the submission deadline are you allowed to submit it? I’m talking evidence that supports your case rather than changing it in anyway?