General Appeal questions

[JM231]

Afternoon,

Sorry as i know there are a lot of appeal chats happening but I had a few questions regarding appealing in general that I didnit see being covered in other chats - if anyone could help, it would be much appreciated!

1. I know you cant add additional evidence after the letter but do you have to play all your cards/arguments in the letter? My concern is that it will allow the school to see and prepare responses a long time in advance?

2. i understand we see the Admission authority's case 7 days before the hearing but when do they see ours? as we have to send our appeal to the school in April doesn't that allow then an unfair advantage to plan the responses?

3. When arguing on grounds of subjects/clubs that the school offer that are not offered elsewhere - would A-Level choices be applicable for a year 7 appeal or only GCSE options?

4. There is a lot of info regarding the strength of the LA's case in other threads - but surely 99% of the time their argument is simply " we are full". Maybe its my ignorance but what else would they bring to the table?

All time and help is much appreciated.

I think most parents assume the LA are made aware as our LA keep the waiting list until all the allocation rounds are done. I doubt it's deliberate but you have made a good point and l'll do that if we get a place before the hearing.

You don't have to submit all your evidence with the appeal form. There will, however, be a deadline for submitting evidence. If you miss that and turn up to the hearing with additional evidence, the appeal panel has three options. They might simply accept the new evidence, or they might adjourn the hearing to allow everyone time to absorb the new evidence, or they might refuse to accept it at all. Which option they take depends on the nature of the new evidence and on the appeal panel you get.

Not necessarily - more students= more money. If there's< 10 appeals and the school knows they can take them, what's the benefit to the school of turning them away?

The school I work at is oversubscribed, the head would like to accommodate an extra class per year (would be a squeeze but probably possible) but this involves negotiations with the LA and trustees. Currently, my understanding is the school doesn't really put a case if anyone appeals!

I have another question for all those with appeal panel knowledgable. How do you think the panel will view the fact my son knows nothing about which school he will go to? He does not know he has been offered a school nor that we are appealing for another one. He’s only ever looked round two schools, both independent. Because of his ASD he gets very anxious around lots of people and big settings. The one independent school was large and he found it overwhelming so we didn’t apply and the other was a small, nurturing one which he liked, but who turned him down ☹️ We then applied to another 2 local, small, nurturing independents who also said no.
He has said he doesn’t want to go to a big secondary school like his friends (in a concerned way, not a bratish way if you get what I mean) so we don’t want to make him anxious about it all and would rather tell him where he is going once it is finally decided. I just wondered what you thought panel might make of this as I believe they often ask what the child’s a view is - will they view this negatively?

Yes, this is definitely something that can happen when budgets are tight. Successful schools are often discouraged by the LA from increasing their PAN if there is another local school that is undersubscribed. Even academies, which can increase their PAN without LA approval, often feel morally compelled not to. But schools that want more students can get them by not robustly defending appeals.
This definitely happens in my area, and probably accounts for why there seems to be a suspiciously high number of ex-governors and ex PTA members from the undersubscribed school sitting on local appeal panels. They obviously have no sympathy for parents whose main appeal motive seems to be avoidance of the undersubscribed school.

I haven't come across panels asking about the child's view. Unless there is evidence of a mistake, the panel's decision should be entirely about the balance of prejudice. Unless the child's view of the appeal school or the allocated school is relevant to that in some way (which is unlikely), it shouldn't be a factor.

Thanks @prh47bridge that’s reassuring. We want to do the right thing by our son. I’ve recently attended an 8-week parenting course for parents with children who are AuDHD and they stated that these children are generally 1/3 less emotionally mature than their peers - that would put my son’s maturity at about that of an 8 yr old and to be honest it feels right! We really don’t feel it’s right to burden him with the decision as to where he goes to secondary, even though for some children it’s absolutely right to involve them and seek their opinion/wishes. His twin sister was very clear about where she wanted to go, and fortunately she has got a place there (he can’t go as it is all girls). Neither would it be right to delay his start to secondary though, he is really bright and needs the academic stimulation.
Thanks again prh47bridge for all your advice and input.

Again, I agree with prh47bridge.

I think you’ve done the right thing in not telling your son about the allocated school or the appeal. Generally, the child’s preference for a school doesn’t carry weight at appeal because it’s about need and the balance of prejudice (detriment). What is unhelpful is when parents encourage the child to be upset at not getting a place at the preferred school and then try to use that as leverage at the appeal, because the panel can’t take the child’s upset into account unless it touches on issues of prejudice.

Thanks @PanelChair I think my son would rather not go to either school, but he has to go somewhere! So we really want the school where he stands the best chance of settling and engaging with the curriculum. It’s difficult because preferred school is perceived as the better school and offered school is not considered (unfairly I believe) to be as good. But preferred school use some specific teaching techniques that will really engage our son and I believe could be the difference between him realising his academic potential versus out right school refusal.

It doesn't necessarily have any repercussions on the school at all, so they may not have even thought about tightening up. That could be an every year one, or it could be a one off.

One local school to us rarely had any appeals won, until one year when the head walked in and said "yes we can take all the appeals" so they accepted them all, and I know that most of them had no argument at all other than they wanted the school. Let's just say he had a personal reason why he wanted one of the appeals to success. A family reason maybe... That took the classes all to 33/34 with the appeals. However the school after that year reverted back to fighting the appeals and winning, so it's not made any change to any other appeal.
However I know another that would love to increase their PAN but has been refused, and standardly puts up very weak or no argument and most win.

How strong an argument is the clubs/activities piece? Can an appeal be won on this alone?

Unlikely, unless the school's case is very weak, or there is something very unique about the activity.

Clubs/societies are often things that can be supported by activities outside of school, so they are unlikely on their own to be enough to show enough detriment in not having.

That makes sense - but are they still valuable? Alongside other arguments?

Of course, they help to add to the overall picture. Often a case is built of many smaller bricks rather than just one large one.

That’s a good analogy thanks - and in your experience those casss built in that way are stronger?

My concern is slightly that by detailing a number of smaller benefits/links it could look
like you are “clutching at straws” slightly?

It depends. I've read cases where the parents have put a number of points which, on their own, are relatively weak together to make a decent case. On the other hand, I've read cases where it has just felt like the parents are trying to throw the kitchen sink at it, and it doesn't come across well.

I agree and there’s something here too (I think) about plausibility. If you are arguing (say) that your child will be disadvantaged if they’re not admitted to this school because it’s the only one with an orchestra, the panel is likely to ask about their current involvement or interest in music. Your argument becomes much more plausible if your child is already taking part in music in some way than if their last musical experience was bashing a xylophone in preschool.

One does occasionally get the impression that the child has no real interest in whatever it is that the parent is mentioning, but the parent has noticed it in the school prospectus and decided to add it to the list.

Agree with PRH & PanelChair; it's all back to the point we keep making about evidence. You need to show why these things are important; why you child needs, for example, the choir, the language club, the dance studio etc.

All of these points without some evidence of existing talent/aptitude/engagement are useless. "He's always fancied trying German" isn't evidence; "He has German relatives, he has been going to afterschool lessons that he won't be able to access once he has to get the bus to secondary, we try to speak it as much as we can at home but the allocated school doesn't offer it at all" is more compelling.

Thanks always @PanelChair @PatriciaHolm @prh47bridge for your invaluable advice

Is it worth taking someone from the school with us to the appeal? Both the Head and Deputy have offered but they have already stated that they believe DS to be academically capable in supportive letters so would bringing them be sensible or over kill?

You mean the head from your current school or the school you are appealing for? The latter won't be allowed - see clause 2.14 of the Admission Appeals Code.

The current primary school, I can't see the Head of appeal school supporting us at all!

I think that would (as you say) be overkill. A letter is enough. Bringing the headteacher to the appeal might feel to the panel like an attempt to browbeat them, which you don’t want.

For those that are appealing/have appealed just wondering how long was your appeal letter etc?

fully appreciate the content is far more important and it’s quality not quantity but interested to get a gauge on what is “normal”?