Page 8 | What's wrong with hothousing?

justanotherdaduser · 2023-03-02T07:50:50+00:00

That's it really. Hothousing is often mentioned here in a derogatory tone and I was wondering why people dislike it?

Elij00 · 10/04/2023 01:46

Ladybowes · 09/04/2023 19:11

This may be true but I would suggest that is because these school are either grammar schools so they cream the brightest away from the state mixed sex schools or they are private and therefore have parents that can afford to get tutors when their children struggle...nothing necessarily to do with them being single sex.

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I would say them being single sex schools also played a massive role too if not they would have all gone fully co-ed a long time ago. They clearly all see the benefit of educating Boys alone till they are 16 at the very least. A recent research showed that Girls were routinely given more generous grades even when both pupils have the same academic abilities.

PettsWoodParadise · 10/04/2023 06:34

in my area we we have single sex state schools that are not grammar. They are all more popular than the co-Ed’s and do well. I have a DD at a same sex grammar but my DNeice and DNephew both went to single sex comps. As DNephew said he was very glad he studied Dickens rather than Austen like his sister, simple things like that than can turn off the interest however egalitarian and open minded you want to be.

Ladybowes · 10/04/2023 07:55

Elij00 · 10/04/2023 01:46

I would say them being single sex schools also played a massive role too if not they would have all gone fully co-ed a long time ago. They clearly all see the benefit of educating Boys alone till they are 16 at the very least. A recent research showed that Girls were routinely given more generous grades even when both pupils have the same academic abilities.

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You may be right however, the research is limited and just because parents favour single sex schools does not necessary mean it is a massive factor. Research also often has problems in this area as so many factors involved and it is difficult to say exactly what is causing what. Interesting also I have read other threads on here where many single sex schools are now going co-ed e.g. This taken from a newspaper article - Westminster School, one of Britain’s oldest public schools, has announced it will go fully ‘co-ed’ from 2030. Having first admitted girls to the sixth form in the 1970s, the school will now admit girls from the age of 13.

Areyouforreal77 · 11/04/2023 07:47

user1477391263 · 09/04/2023 23:35

The biggest gaps between boys’ and girls’ performances, globally, are found in a) Nordic countries (very gender equal, huge efforts made not to distinguish between boys and girls at all if possible, and I think single-sex education is pretty much unheard of nowadays), and b) Middle Eastern countries (very sexist, constant casual differentiation between boys and girls, and mostly single-sex schools!)

Boys underperform compared to girls in basically all societies where girls have equal access to schooling (except in maths at the higher levels, where boys often catch up and then outperform girls at later ages). But in terms of where the gaps are big vs where they are small, the factors making the difference do not seem to be where people think they are.

One issue with mass-scale single sex schooling at the state level is that it would be harder to find good teachers without accepting pay scale differentials where male teachers are paid more. Women would be reluctant to work in all-boys’ state schools, and men might also demand more “danger money” (!) as it were, before being prepared to work in them. Yet paying male teachers more, or paying teachers of boys’ schools more, would be politically explosive and create accusations of sexism. In the Middle East, one of several factors why boys do so poorly compared with their sisters, is because they can’t get good reliable male teachers; the wages aren’t considered high enough for the difficulty of managing all-boys classes, and men are a lot less likely than women to be second-income earners who are in teaching because they are the caring, socially aware type.

Having single-sex schools at the macro level, with lots of state single sex schools, is easier to do in societies like Singapore where very harsh discipline for boys (including corporal punishment) is normal and widely accepted, as it makes boys easier to manage. Few people in the UK would be OK with this nowadays! Mumsnet is full of posters flipping out because they didn’t like the way their child looked in the photographs taken at the school residential etc; no way would they be OK with their boys being disciplined the way they are in places like Singapore.

thanks for your insight. I had not seen this about gender disparity in the Nordics and Middle East. Can you please post a link to this paper?

user1477391263 · 11/04/2023 10:08

It’s not a single paper; basically, the data can be seen at the websites for PISA, TIMSS, PIRLS and OECD websites. I’ll have a look for some quick to read sources later. Here is one article about the Middle East, in any case.
https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2017/09/boys-are-not-defective/540204/

Areyouforreal77 · 11/04/2023 10:09

user1477391263 · 11/04/2023 10:08

It’s not a single paper; basically, the data can be seen at the websites for PISA, TIMSS, PIRLS and OECD websites. I’ll have a look for some quick to read sources later. Here is one article about the Middle East, in any case.
https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2017/09/boys-are-not-defective/540204/

thanks. I'd be interested in the Nordics, in particular, as you wouldn't necessarily think that about those countries are more progressive and equal in other ways.

Areyouforreal77 · 11/04/2023 10:23

Areyouforreal77 · 11/04/2023 10:09

thanks. I'd be interested in the Nordics, in particular, as you wouldn't necessarily think that about those countries are more progressive and equal in other ways.

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Read a large gender gap in Norway, in favour of girls, and that this started earlier there than in most countries. wonder how much that has to do with the oil industries and men knowing there was always going to be a job going regardless of continuing into further education or not.
Guessing Finland and their mobile phone/tech might have played a part in that too?

user1477391263 · 11/04/2023 12:37

https://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/sites/f56f8c26-en/index.html?itemId=/content/component/f56f8c26-en. This is 2018 and only applies to PISA, but as you can see, the Nordic countries like Iceland, Sweden and Norway, and Middle Eastern countries, tend to predominate among the weather countries that have big gaps in reading performance. There will be more data online if you have a look.

I believe the gaps in the Nordic countries are related to the “soft” nature of their education systems; they feature long school holidays, short hours, little tutoring, lots of student autonomy and very gentle, child-led attitudes towards discipline.

That’s nice in a way, but it also means that how much a child learns will tend to depend much more heavily on how naturally conscientious a child is and how much they want to learn and please parents of their own accord, without being forced.

Kids who want to make their parents happy and love reading and learning anyway will do fine; kids who are not interested in learning and inclined to be lazier and less mature will do worse in such systems than they would in a system where teachers and tutors will put a boot in the bum and make them work anyway. You can see from this why boys do significantly worse in Nordic countries!

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ThunderDad · 11/04/2023 16:34

user1477391263 · 11/04/2023 12:37

https://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/sites/f56f8c26-en/index.html?itemId=/content/component/f56f8c26-en. This is 2018 and only applies to PISA, but as you can see, the Nordic countries like Iceland, Sweden and Norway, and Middle Eastern countries, tend to predominate among the weather countries that have big gaps in reading performance. There will be more data online if you have a look.

I believe the gaps in the Nordic countries are related to the “soft” nature of their education systems; they feature long school holidays, short hours, little tutoring, lots of student autonomy and very gentle, child-led attitudes towards discipline.

That’s nice in a way, but it also means that how much a child learns will tend to depend much more heavily on how naturally conscientious a child is and how much they want to learn and please parents of their own accord, without being forced.

Kids who want to make their parents happy and love reading and learning anyway will do fine; kids who are not interested in learning and inclined to be lazier and less mature will do worse in such systems than they would in a system where teachers and tutors will put a boot in the bum and make them work anyway. You can see from this why boys do significantly worse in Nordic countries!

I remember when I was at primary school (back in my day!), in our class there were two 'top' students. I was (not trying to boast but this is a fact) one of them. We both got 100% in every spelling and maths test, and we did so exclusively among our peers.

The problem was that the other top student was a girl. This meant that she would study ahead through all the work books on her own with minimal prodding from the teacher. Meanwhile I was off chatting to my mates at the bin pretending to sharpen pencils half the day. When not at the bin we would enjoy pelting each other with crayons, talking about cartoons and what not.

After a while I came to the conclusion something was wrong with me. I wondered why couldn't I be teacher's pet like the clever girl, doing all the workbooks by myself etc. I got the test results but I didn't have the work ethic. I liked to mess around at school.

Point is bright girls are conscientious and hard working at primary school. Bright boys are annoying. Annoying the teacher and being a smart ass is a favourite way for the bright boy to get attention.

Boys need a lot more structure and discipline to work hard in primary school than girls do. The 'soft' education system and fashionable ideas of 'work at your own pace' suite girls but are catastrophic for boys, hence countries that implement these ideas have a bigger educational gender gap.

I would suggest that moreover, just having girls around boys in the classroom is demoralising for boys, who cannot compete with girls in terms of things like conscientiousness, keeping still and quiet, pleasing the teacher. This isn't good for the confidence of a bright boy and I say this as someone who experienced it.

The girl in the class went on to be a somewhat well-known scientist at CERN. I'm doing well enough and finally have come to understand why I was not and could never have won the teacher's favour in such a classroom. It's not fair on boys and it is better to educate them separately.

Dyslexicwonder · 11/04/2023 20:14

It's not fair on boys and it is better to educate them separately.

How is it not fair ?
Why is it that boys can't be conscientious?
What is topping them ?
I am afraid after the prime minister before last I have little time for men who don't read ahead, do the homework and pay attention. Are you really telling me that 50% of the population is incapable of doing this ?

Dyslexicwonder · 11/04/2023 20:15

What is stopping them bot topping them.
Interestingly South Asian boys seem able to do these things.

Thrilledboy · 11/04/2023 20:25

ThunderDad · 11/04/2023 16:34

I remember when I was at primary school (back in my day!), in our class there were two 'top' students. I was (not trying to boast but this is a fact) one of them. We both got 100% in every spelling and maths test, and we did so exclusively among our peers.

The problem was that the other top student was a girl. This meant that she would study ahead through all the work books on her own with minimal prodding from the teacher. Meanwhile I was off chatting to my mates at the bin pretending to sharpen pencils half the day. When not at the bin we would enjoy pelting each other with crayons, talking about cartoons and what not.

After a while I came to the conclusion something was wrong with me. I wondered why couldn't I be teacher's pet like the clever girl, doing all the workbooks by myself etc. I got the test results but I didn't have the work ethic. I liked to mess around at school.

Point is bright girls are conscientious and hard working at primary school. Bright boys are annoying. Annoying the teacher and being a smart ass is a favourite way for the bright boy to get attention.

Boys need a lot more structure and discipline to work hard in primary school than girls do. The 'soft' education system and fashionable ideas of 'work at your own pace' suite girls but are catastrophic for boys, hence countries that implement these ideas have a bigger educational gender gap.

I would suggest that moreover, just having girls around boys in the classroom is demoralising for boys, who cannot compete with girls in terms of things like conscientiousness, keeping still and quiet, pleasing the teacher. This isn't good for the confidence of a bright boy and I say this as someone who experienced it.

The girl in the class went on to be a somewhat well-known scientist at CERN. I'm doing well enough and finally have come to understand why I was not and could never have won the teacher's favour in such a classroom. It's not fair on boys and it is better to educate them separately.

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Laughing over cloud! I got a primary school boy is just like that… love to mess around but smart enough to get over necessary exams. Comparing to girls in friends’ home I’d say boys typically mature later than girls and may have the same potential if not higher. So it is indeed important to put them in their own bucket and not put them in disadvantage in early years.

ReneeX · 13/04/2023 18:41

Exactly. A father of my child was poorly performing in primary. By my standards he is still very lazy lol. However, he happened to be a scientists with quite a few patents. Late bloomer. He woke up in secondary school.