What's wrong with hothousing?

[justanotherdaduser]

That's it really. Hothousing is often mentioned here in a derogatory tone and I was wondering why people dislike it?

@ThunderDad at which point did l say that l, or others l know did not nurture talent? The extremely talented pupil l mentioned has been encouraged from the outset both by his parents and myself to reach his full potential. He took a few graded exams but not every one as it would have been soul destroying for him and held him back. I have given him every opportunity to perform in public including a concerto movement with a local orchestra. He has just been accepted as a junior scholar at one of the most prestigious music colleges in the country. How could this have happened without encouragement and nurturing and, frankly the skill of knowing how to do it on my behalf. The difference between hothousing and encouragement is that with hothousing you are pushing the whole time whereas with encouragement you are gently enabling them to reach their potential. If you have taught the piano for twenty years you will know that occasionally there is the fire within a pupil that can only be sparked and an undefinable something that cannot be taught but only nurtured. I have taught piano, violin and viola for nearly forty years and had pupils of all ages and abilities. I hope l have encouraged every single one to be the best they can be. I organise an annual pupils’ concert with a retiring collection for charity. Every child has the chance to perform and l make as much as I can of everyone. This is encouragement. When my own children were small l gave them plenty of musical encouragement but didn’t start them on formal lessons until they were six or seven and I also let them gravitate towards the instrument that interested them, although they had piano lessons as a back up. My daughter, for example, is a very talented flautist and also has perfect pitch but I didn’t push her to acquire it.

Many years ago, there was a little girl called Ruth Lawrence who was hothoused by her father to study maths. When she was twelve she went to Oxford and there were photos of her on a tandem with her father on her way to lectures. What sort of life was that? She had no friends her own age and could not participate fully in student life. She is now a middle aged adult who lives on a kibbutz in Israel and has brought up her own children well out of the spotlight. She has said that she would never want her children to experience her upbringing.

Also I said that perfect pitch is inherent not genetic, although I am sure it can be genetic. Acquired “perfect pitch” is very often very good relative pitch, which is not the same thing at all. I did not realise that I had perfect pitch until I was sixteen. I had simply assumed that all trained musicians could identify notes and keys by ear and also read pieces of music at pitch in their heads in the same manner as reading a book. I had lots of encouragement from my family, particularly my grandfather, and teachers but not pushed beyond my limits. These people wanted the best for me and not the reflected glory for themselves.

I find this really interesting. I have always wondered whether hothousing can lead to a person achieving almost beyond what they're naturally capable of so that when it comes to uni (though some students stay close to home and STILL have tutoring/hot housing) or going into the work place (e.g. medicine), things start to unravel which then leads to anxiety (likely already present as strong correlation with perfectionism) and poor MH when these individuals simply don't feel they're up to the job etc?

It would be good to have more stats on this i.e. longitudinal examining those students who self-identify as 'hot housed' (including those with helicopter/tiger parents) and how they fare once they go to university. Are they more likely to suffer with MH issues (I think other studies have shown that poorer self esteeem and fear of failure etc is correlated with more 'controlling' family environments).

I did read somewhere (sorry can't find the link now) that there are huge issues with MH/depression/anxiety in the Asian community, where education is highly prized (and hot housing common)and where only certain professions (e.g. accountancy, medicine and dentristy) are seen as options.

Anyone with insight into any of this?

Is there, e.g., a higher drop out amongst junior doctors nowadays compared with, say, 20-30 years ago when hot housing really wasn't quite as wide spread (and is there a cultural difference amongst those dropping out)?

I also wonder sometimes whether someone working in A&E who has been pushed beyond their capability, after lots of tutoring through GCSE/A-levels and numerous practice tests for GMAT etc etc but who is perhaps not 'naturally' bright at this level, are they really going to react as quickly as might be needed in acute situations? I wonder whether there is then a feeling of 'not being up to the job' amongst these individuals?

Theorising here but it would be interesting to hear views on this. Of course, there are the Scandivian countries where hothousing isn't (or didn't use to be) at all a thing as parents let children / teens work independently. They still seem to do OK in world rankings when it comes to successful organisations and entrepreneurship...

Speaking as a teacher, in my experience there is an inverse relationship between schools that "hothouse" and pastoral care. Not that the staff don't care or are unkind, but all that chasing 11+/A* and Oxbridge/Ivy League is awfully hard on anyone who doesn't quite make the grade.

I've probably got the least hot-house-able child and it's been a real learning curve for me and DH (both swots, but we didn't need hothousing - we both enjoyed studying).

I've also got two nieces who are extremely academic and while my DSIS and DBIL are encouraging and supportive, it comes from within.

I read here a lot of trust in national curiculum and what should be be tought at what age. But I don't have that confidence... I believe each child is different. Some kids need it slower, some can go faster. That is why I am not against hothousing

@Violinist64 It sounds like you are a fine teacher and I'm sorry if I might have misinterpreted your words. I unfortunately don't have pitch myself but I think I would have developed it with some training before the age of three. I say this because of the remarkable success I have achieved with my own son.

To clarify what I mean by hothousing: it doesn't exactly mean pushing your kid hard. But it is a time-intensive method of parenting. Activities with toddlers are actually best made consistently slightly too easy for them. This way they continually learn but also gain confidence. I have learned this, in fact, from having pushed piano students too hard in the past and have determined not to make the same mistake with my son. However I have put in a lot of time with him from birth to three (and I'm very glad to have had the luxury to do this). It's the time that makes the difference. Hours and hours of conversations, games, flashcards, fun activities which he enjoys. When he has had enough of something I back off - this is crucial when 'hothousing'.

Once a kid is at school, I completely agree that scheduling their free time with activities and tutors is probably very counterproductive. From about age three I believe that children need a lot of time to indulge in creative play, even if they spend some of that time being bored. The boredom helps them discover where their interests and passions lie.

The sweet spot is before creative play becomes a thing, when the baby / toddler is totally compliant and receptive. In these years you can, in my opinion, provide a foundation which is worth more than any subsequent schooling, tutoring or university.

Thunderdad - “hours and hours of games and conversation” is what the rest of us call “parenting”

@ThunderDad what's the point of him knowing all those shapes?

"remarkable success I have achieved with my own son"

And there, for all to see, is the reflected glory.

Come back every 3yrs to update please thunderdad

"To clarify what I mean by hothousing: it doesn't exactly mean pushing your kid hard. But it is a time-intensive method of parenting. Activities with toddlers are actually best made consistently slightly too easy for them."

@ThunderDad then you don't understand the meaning of the word hothousing. Hothousing is about pushing your kid hard. What you described is just normal parenting

The thing about being against 'hothousing' is that it gives a very convenient excuse for parents to be pretty lazy parents.

You really did call parents lazy.

I knew the first wife of Ruth Lawrence’s father. She left him because she refused to let him do to their children what he then did to her.

What if your son grows up to have little interest in music? Would you be fine with that?

@ThunderDad also, what is the point of trying to speed up your dc education or learning? Some dc are late bloomers. For example when my ds was 3 almost 4, his school sent home books for phonics and reading. My ds did not seem ready. So we had a very relaxed approach. I did not try to make him read. I saw he was not ready and left it. When I could see he was actually ready to read (I would check from time to time when reading to him) then we started reading. My ds is GDS for reading now and this is on his own. He developed a passion for reading because I did not force him so early on. Once he was ready, I supported him, provided him with books I thought would interest him.

@Violinist64 ,
Many good points in your post, thank you.

Regarding this ^about Ruth Lawrence -
"She is now a middle aged adult who lives on a kibbutz in Israel and has brought up her own children well out of the spotlight. "^
^
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^Lawrence is an assistant professor of mathematics in Hebrew university of Jerusalem mathematics.huji.ac.il/people/ruth-lawrence-naimark^
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She moved to Israel after marrying her husband who is a mathematician from the same university.

Prior to that, she taught at Harvard and later as a tenured professor in university of Michigan.
^
Lawrence is mentioned in this thread a few times and frequently used as an exemplary victim of pushy parenting.
^
While definitely not a fan of her father's parenting style, I feel we shouldn't describe her as some sort of devastated life, a recluse living in a kibbutz. We just don't know enough about Lawrence (rightly so!).
^

@ThunderDad I think what you're describing is called "parenting"....

In threads like this, I think Ruth Lawrence’s example is often seen not as someone whose life was destroyed - clearly she has a family and is working in mathematics and I hope she is happy and feels fulfilled - but as someone who experienced a high profile “hothouse”/faststream education and the end result did not seem to produce the high profile mathematician that her father perhaps expected. There was a big disconnect - Ruth is a good mathematician, clearly, but she is not a global name in mathematics. She could have gone to university at the normal age and had a career achieving everything she has achieved.

I had a friend at Oxford reading maths at St Hugh’s (Ruth’s college) at the same time Ruth was there. Apparently Ruth was well liked, though her father wasn’t, but Ruth could not, fairly obviously, participate in all the social activities that a university has to offer. She missed out on that.

The telling point here, I think, is that Ruth herself has chosen a private life for her children and said that she would not wish her own experience for them.

Hothousing = destroying a child's mental and spiritual wellbeing in the pursuit of higher academic outcomes than would be achieved by simply letting them pursue knowledge at a pace they can cope with. if you are just nurturing and encouraging your child's natural talent and curiosity it's not hothousing.

this. It’s more than just tutoring/support/encouragement. There’s an element of the child being forced well beyond their natural capability.

He’s 3. Come back when he’s 18 and let us know how it all worked out.

Sorry I mean 2 not 3.

Pretty sure-although happy to be proved wrong-that you can't develop perfect pitch. It's innate.

@Curlewkate, you are right. @HawthornLantern this is exactly what I was trying to get at but you have expressed it far better than me. I met someone who was at Oxford at the same time as Ruth Lawrence and he said much the same as your friend. He also said that although she was very good she could not be thought a genius or outstanding (by Oxford standards) until she had proved something new.
@justanotherdaduser thank you for the update on Ruth Lawrence. I didn't mean to give the impression that she was hidden away but l appreciate what you said about her career and family. She is obviously a success but would have been a success with a much happier childhood if she had been allowed to be a child.

As I said, we knew her father’s first wife well, and she left with her kids because she refused to let them have the upbringing that Ruth ended up with.

Without knowing any of the details, the Ruth Lawrence thing struck me as absurd, really damaging, her father very much 'needed his head checking'.

Whatever professional or academic field the hothousing parent wants his or her child to ultimately succeed in [something like pro sport is different, a poorly adjusted brat can certainly succeed there], the child will as an adult need to repeatedly interact with other people, with a halfway normal childhood being the tried-and-tested way of building the skills we need to do that as adults.

e.g. there was a kid in my class at school who was probably about as good at maths as a Ruth Lawrence, but the parents there did absolutely the right thing, yes the child quietly sloped off in year 8 or something to sit A level maths, and thereafter didn't show up to regular maths classes, doing some kind of private study instead, but every other lesson, including sports and so on, took place with appropriately aged peers, and university started at the normal age. in RL'c case, going to university aged 12, with no opportunity to make friends, have boyfriends, etc, was utter madness.

There seems to be some confusion as to what I mean by hothousing when I say that I hothouse my toddler. My definition is something along the lines of this article:

https://www.verywellfamily.com/hothouse-children-1449187

As in we do flashcards (hundreds of them), pitch training, games with an educational focus, jigsaws (with many pieces), piano practice, violin practice, memorisation of hundreds of images, flags etc. from books.

I think most of you would not describe this as regular parenting. However it is true that in Singapore, for example, it is culturally normal to do this with your toddler.

I think we have a very similar view here @Violinist64 - happy that Ruth has progressed in her life but sad that she seems to have paid a price for it that was unnecessary. And your friend and mine certainly gave us very a similar picture - my friend said that the comment she kept hearing of Ruth was that Ruth was great at learning but did not have creativity in maths.

If you are trying, like Ruth's father to "push, push, push" then you may not know, notice or understand enough to realise this dimension. But if, instead, you just provide the support and environment for a youngster to flourish at their own pace, then the creativity will come if it is there in the first place, I would hope. If you are just trying to cram stuff in, then how can creativity come out? (Not sure I'm expressing my point clearly here!)