With Oxbridge taking less and less private school students, is it still worth it??

[SillySmart]

stats shows that the number of private educated students Oxbridge enrolled has dropped 1/3 in the past 5 years. Any thoughts?

Part of the reason we have a shortage of medics in the UK is an inability to retain the ones we do train - much better work / life balance , job satisfaction and pay / conditions on offer in other English speaking countries or on other careers.

Around 50% of new hire doctors are from overseas because it’s cheaper / easier to recruit them and the government still gets to crow about meeting targets.

@Charlemagne38 - care to explain why you think this, then?
“@Xenia With respect, we are not discussing students, such as your sons, who do not wish (or do not wish to do the extra work) to apply to Oxbridge. That was their (and your) choice. Are we not thinking about young people who have worked extremely hard, because an Oxbridge application was their choice? We are talking about students who feel that the die was loaded against them. They will all, presumably, have excellent offers from St Andrews, Durham, UCL, Bristol etc and, at the end of the day, they will have very successful careers. Bur it does matter to them - enormously. No 18 year old desrves to feel that he or she is judged by the general population solely on his / her background, whether priviledged or underpriviledged.”

I am sure these students are not reading Mumsnet, so why would they be getting the idea that the “die is loaded against them”? In what way is that not sour grapes? If the die is loaded against them, it stands to reason it is unfairly loaded in favour of others, so actual evidence of this is required, not just anecdote. Is there actual evidence that the state educated students who get offers to Oxford and Cambridge are less deserving of their places than the unsuccessful privately educated candidates?

The med students paid the tuition fee. They don't owe you anything.

What absolute nonsense. Loads of EU and EEA unis for tech/engineering and science. ETH Zurich is outstanding, for example. Uni Heidelberg etc - you can start trawling per subject.

yeah... I said a handful in the first 100. Uni Heidelberg is what 55 or 86th in the world in rankings as per their own website? ETH Zurich is not in the first 10th even.

How possibly one can compare Heidelberg Uni with Oxford or Cambridge Univ that are in top 5 next to Harvard?

amongst my large group of friends and colleagues, some with kids in state grammars, state comps, top private schools, many are looking at options in other countries.

...Because they didn't get in Oxford or Cambridge? If they did they surely would accept the offer:)

Having lived in France, Poland and USA I can confirm that waiting time to have an operation is longer than in UK, you are paying fortune for medications and in US the public health system hardly exists at all.

Especially if they have some ties there. This is simply the second wave of the Brexit exodus
If they have ties ( like dual citizen as myself) they are not expected to have €10k per each year of studies, expensive private medical insurance because EHIC cover only tourists. Also they have work permit, they can work and study. But British citizens with one passport don't have that luxury. This all comes with overseas fees which are higher for non EU citizens. Also, with the exception of a few universities here and there that have courses in English only, in most cases students have to be fluent almost up to a native speaker standard to be able study and pass language requirement exams at a level of B2 minimum

Recommending studying in Europe for a British citizen as an inexpensive alternative is ill informed. This may be an option for bilingual children of EU citizens.

ETH is number 5 for Computer Science worldwide.

People are looking at those kind of courses. Like I said, look up the rankings specifically for tech/engineering/sciences etc if that is what the kid wants.

Lots of British people can get legacy EU passports, and have been doing just that.

Several friends have sent their DC on medical degrees in Europe because they think it will be easier and better to practise there afterwards.
The language requirements for Sciences, Tech seemed ok. None of these kids were fully bilingual. Bright people pick it up quickly and improve quickly. 2 went to Denmark with rudimentary Danish skills and seem to be thriving.

For a long time medics have not necessarily been keen on Oxbridge anyway.

Another friend’s DC went to ETH for architecture. Architects are badly paid in the UK. So people are not just considering uni fees but future quality of life. In particular, in medicine. So if you have the options to do it elsewhere and have better quality of life later on, why not take it?!

@RedFluffyPanda - ETH also does an exchange with MIT. Another consideration for the alpha parent after “experiences”.

So let’s not kid ourselves that there is no competition out there especially in tech etc.

The statistics for getting into Cambridge for Computer Science for private school kids are dire. So why not look elsewhere? I would and my DC are not even at private school.

Cambridge and Oxford also do exchanges but the British citizens don't need €24k for a visa per year upfront to study.

The statistics for getting into Cambridge for Computer Science for private school kids are dire.

As if getting to ETH Zurich was easy... Equally hard as now all Europeans are trying to get in due to the discounted fees.

So why not look elsewhere?
Studying in Europe is an appealing option for affluent who show a lot of cash when getting visa and for dual citizens but not for an average Brit.
The very same reason why there are fewer Europeans coming to study in UK- it became very expensive because of visa requirements and fees.

@RedFluffyPanda - we are talking about the rich private school kids though. Go onto the leavers destinations of the top private school websites in London (Westminster, St Paul’s etc) and some schools like Sevenoaks and you will see what I mean. The percentage of those going abroad is ticking up vs Oxbridge offers - it was initially just mainly US but now Canada and Europe too. And like I said, Switzerland ETH, St Gallen, and some place in Lausanne. France Grande Ecole was always hard to get in but it is on people’s radar again. Have seen Milan and Germany too.

These people have the cash and passport options, they are not going to stick around.

Not only in UK. It doesn't work like that in Europe despite larger number of newly built buldings. Architectural work has been highly competitive since digitisation. It is difficult to secure a job anywhere ( also in Europe) because the majority of people pick up existing plans off the bookstore shelf to build a house - and there is a great choice of it in Europe and it ensures planning permissions granted. There are established and renowned architectural offices on the market that cater to the commercial market needs for bespoke architecture, and new entrants to the market have hardly any chance.
It is one of those study subjects that has an intake higher than there is a market need everywhere.

Bad examples. Those surely can afford studying in Oxbridge and any university for that matter and if offered they accept it. From the listed by you schools 40-56 percent are going to Oxbridge because they got in and are sticking around. Just go to Westminster and St Paul's leavers destination pages and see where they going. They go to Russell group and some to universities in USA. Very few aim for Europe.
Those who can afford go to USA to study. I studied in California as it was much better option for an MBA than on the continent.

@RedFluffyPanda - the kids at these schools are surely not applying to both Oxbridge and US? They are picking one or the other, on the school’s advice. The entrance requirements of both pathways are too intense to do both?

The fact is many private school kids at top schools “think” Oxbridge is against them. Whether it is true or not, does it actually matter? If they are acting on it?
And I think it applies more to the competitive courses so those wanting to do English/Classics/MML will still apply to Oxbridge but not those doing more competitive courses. I have been hearing this for years. This started up to 10 years ago. And I am telling you that now people are looking at Europe. It is hearsay and we shall see how it is born out. This particular year now Oxbridge offers are more again for private schools which tells me the unis have realised it went too far.

@RedFluffyPanda - the NHS is not at all free for higher rate tax payers. It is really really expensive and they get a crap service. The same now applies to student loans - they are racking up 6 per cent plus interest and the kids are having to pay back 9% extra in tax. The kids who will earn properly. So if you have other options that are good why not take them? These are kids of parents who came to UK when it made sense, if it no longer makes sense, they are off. Every week there is someone I know who leaves or send their DC abroad. It is just a fact. However, UK has high immigration coming in from India/China etc so need not worry. Next generation of good little workers and tax payers all lined up.

From the Westminster school screenshot. Only 5 graduate decided to study in EU. The rest is UK with majority in Oxbridge plus some in US. Bottom part of the image are international choices. Top part of the image overall choices.

Just a few years ago, none of these schools listed EU/EEA destinations on their websites. The fact they are now being listed tells you a lot. There are even kids going from my kids grammar schools.
This is how it started with US unis 10-15 years ago.

@Intergalacticcatharsis Please see what I copy pasted by quoted by you Westminster. Similar situation with St Paul's. Hardly anybody goes to study in EU from the top selective schools

I have been hearing this for years.
Because they didn't get into Oxbridge and are rationalising their options.

This started up to 10 years ago. And I am telling you that now people are looking at Europe.
Children of Europeans with EU passports and children of affluent parents who didn't gain admission to Russell Group universities are looking and doing it. It makes sense for that group. Especially that they are bilingual.

Due to the impractical financial aspect of studying in the UK for many in Europe, young Europeans now choose to study in the Netherlands, where numerous subjects are available in English. This shift has resulted in a problem concerning limited access to accommodation.

“ I have been hearing this for years.
Because they didn't get into Oxbridge and are rationalising their options.

This started up to 10 years ago. And I am telling you that now people are looking at Europe.
Children of Europeans with EU passports and children of affluent parents who didn't gain admission to Russell Group universities are looking and doing it. It makes sense for that group. Especially that they are bilingual.”

Is it harder for private school kids to get into competitive Russell group uni courses as well then?

Absolutely not true. An average British student enjoyed access to EU member state tution fees and no visa related bank statement requirements. Many Brits studied in France and Italy.

Is it harder for private school kids to get into competitive Russell group uni courses as well then?
It is highly competitive but actually easier than before Brexit as before there were many EU applicants are not even considering.
For private school kids it is harder to get into Oxbridge in particular as there was a heavy criticism in the press of those Universities that they accept higher proportion of privately educated than state educated. Therefore, those universities made a shift and now they pay a lot of attention for giving access to the capable graduates from state schools.

@RedFluffyPanda - you are talking about an average British student and I am talking about the privileged private student with rich parents. I am asking why these top schools now list EU destinations and US destinations so much when they did not 15 years ago? Clearly, that is the market they are catering to?

@Uni2024 yes, medical students do pay their tuition fees - substantial at around £55,000. However, there is an additional large sum - around £163,000 - which is paid by the government. I don’t think that it’s right that there is no obligation to give some time to the NHS. It doesn’t have to be long. As it stands we have to employ doctors who have been trained overseas, largely at the expense of their own countries, which, in turn, are shorter of doctors etc etc

I am asking why these top schools now list EU destinations and US destinations so much when they did not 15 years ago?

Could you provide me the link to that revelations?

US have always been very popular among those from UK. In the year 2000 personally chosen private US university over UK offers. It is a mistake to put equal sign between US and EU in that matter.

And yes, graduates from the top public schools were deciding to study in France and Spain especially languages.

@RedFluffyPanda - this is fake news.

All the major press has been running this for a while. Top Eton students are going to Harvard because Oxbridge snubbed them. They are not even bothering to apply because the US application process is harder anyway.

“Could you provide me the link to that revelations?”

As you know, Eton are not subject to a Freedom of Information request, so no, I cannot provide you with a link. That does not equal it not being true. It is very noticeable that these institutions now market and list their US destinations in far greater numbers than in the past. TThey are catering to their market and what the parents at these schools want. It is a fact and I do not understand why you would dispute it?

Westminster has a much higher Asian parent contingent and they are still Oxbridge focussed/obsessed.

Just checked 6 out of 280 st Paul's graduates in 2023 decided to study in EU - again French and Italian prevails there.

Top Eton students are going to Harvard because Oxbridge snubbed them. They are not even bothering to apply because the US application process is harder anyway.
US has always been a popular destination for studying and I have never stated here otherwise. Now and before Brexit. In the year 2000 I decided on university in US in California over UK offers. Nothing changed in that department as US has been always popular destination for studies. Now and before Brexit

But studying in EU has not been as popular as studying in US.

65-90 boys from Eton went in the last years to Oxbridge. Look at the data. That is a huge number.
Oxford in Cambridge are still most desired place to go for any British student