Do you need GCSE to do A level History?

[stickygotstuck]

I had a recent thread about DD's GCSE options. Several posters kindly contributed and the general view was that you could easily do History A level without having done the GCSE.

However, I have spoken to some people since who seem to think that if yhou don't take the GCSE that's that door is closed at at A level.

Which is it?

I'm asking now because, having chosen her options, now DD is not happy with them and is thinking of dropping History.

But also, I’d say do what she loves and is interested in. She will automatically do better. DS wants to do law and a friend who is a law lecturer says that grades are what matters not necessarily subjects (apart from history 🫣)

For the teachers out there, out of interest.. if the OP’s DD selects a GCSE option and then the OP doesn’t manage to persuade her to change and so the OP “insists” to the school that it’s changed.

Does the school go with the DD or the OP?

Ask the school

The school should give clear guidance on choosing GCSEs. Up to a point, doing what you are good at works, and continues to work at A level. It works best though for academic Dc who are good at everything and can plan a coherent group of GCSEs leaving fewer academic routes closed off, within reason.

A few have to go. My DDs did History and not Geography. Neither did technology or music. Both did drama. Both had a wide enough portfolio to facilitate a range of degrees or, in the case of DD2, art. DD1 did 2xMFLs. That kept degree options open for her and she kept what she was good at but not at the expense of other options. DD1 did triple science, DD2 didn’t. Neither saw themselves as scientists.

However, part of this revolves around whether DD here should do 2 MFLs because she’s good at them. From a HE point of view: yes. Extremely valuable at A level. Add in English or History you have options. These type of subjects were called facilitating subjects for a reason. They keep the most doors open. They close fewer routes. Other subjects like music and art are best for specific degrees and careers. A blend at A level is obviously fine but closing off too many routes at gcse is not wise and schools should explain this. Often it seems chasing results and not giving advice which matters in the future is all they care about. So basically, if you don’t need art because you cannot envisage doing it for A level, or doing it for HE, drop it in favour of history but keep music and definitely the second MFL.

Red toothbrush - what an interesting post, especially your take on careers/jobs and art skills.
Tigerfizz - I’m sorry but most people think studying two MFLs at gcse is a really unusual choice. Possibly for children who love languages and are not very interested in other subjects available, unlike this DD who wants to study music, art, ethics etc at this stage. And the A levels in MFL are considered to be challenging and are becoming quite rare.
I say this as an MFL lover, I believe languages are wonderful for your brain, education and life skills, but given this DD already fancies too many GCSEs to fit in, I struggle to see how adding in another MFL is going to help the situation

I agree school guidance may well be the way forward at this stage. Or focus in - RPE, Music and German are clear choices so just focus specifically on the final decision between Art or History.
The debate keeps widening out, which isn’t helping

Agree. I think if its about keeping options open then natural choice is one language, one humanity, one art/creative.

The OPs daughter clearly is set on one language (either french or german - i don't think it makes a huge difference which in terms of opportunity - better to put the one she likes most down), RPE as her first choice humanity and Music as her first choice art/creative.

That does leave it a straight choice as History v Art.

If her primary concern is not to close route because she has no idea what to do, picking history over art makes sense. It only makes sense to do art if she is particularly passionate about art - which from the OP doesn't really seem to be the case. Its more a case that she likes it more - and possibly thinks its an easier/softer choice (its really not).

History gives the skill of assessing sources and their value and actually thats a really good life skill to have even if she doesn't ever do history again - its really useful for navigating social media for example.

I think for me looking at the CV of someone who was doing a combo of music, RPE and art I'd tend to think they were potentially a bit away with the fairies/less academic rather than more grounded in reality. I know that possibly sounds unfair/slightly ridiculous but compare with RPE, music and history and it sounds like someone is more cultured, serious and academic. That slight difference in GCSE picks could give a different first impression applying to Uni for a course. And doesn't stop her going back to Art after GSCEs if she has an epiphany that she really wants to do it. (She'd be able to argue that Mum wasn't keen on her doing art / music at GCSE if all else fails and that would get taken seriously!).

Anyway, I will shut up now.

BTW Op was talking about this to DD last night (in a general way) - she took music GCSE and she agrees that music and art is actually quite an unusual combo - no one in her music GCSE group or in the parallel BTEC music group took art as well. she could only think of one person she knew who took both. Music is maybe the reason as it is relatively unusual as it pretty much requires music outside school.

@TizerorFizz GCSE textiles was a popular choice in both the v bog standard comps I worked in - maybe 20+ students in a year took it - and a less popular but still not unheard of choice in my DCs' rather more leafy comp. None of these schools was especially large - maybe 1000 students. Clearly there is a variation on this tho.

Yes seems to be! @clary DD did some textiles work in art A level though.

@JussathoB
Its not unusual in grammar schools and schools willing to recognise linguists should be catered for. It’s no wonder state school pupils from less leafy areas don’t do MFL at university. No one bothered to realise doing two is a great idea. It’s the ultimate dumbing down for talented pupils. We don’t say it’s unusual to do 3 sciences or two mathsy subjects! If Dc is good at MFLs, do two. Sets you up for HE because unis are crying out for linguists. Excellent with any essay subject.

Be aware that the school may nudge her towards history because then she’d contribute to their EBacc figures. I don’t think you’ll get an entirely unbiased opinion there.
Also, for what it’s worth, I was made to do French instead of art and it’s not something I’ve quite forgiven decades later. It has to be her choice, and she has to see that you’re trusting her to make the right decision (albeit with helpful advice about issues/aspects she may not have considered).
I know many disagree on this, but I also think it’s more important that it’s the right decision for her right now than treating it like there’s no going back later.

@RockyOfTheRovers The OP says dd is good at languages. She’s not being dragged to do MFL. Parents and schools should steer young people with knowledge of the outcomes and choices for the future.

How does a 13 year old really understand the implications of choices unless so they get guidance? This DD was upset when school were ? about A level history after no gcse in the subject. She didn’t understand the implications so she really needs guidance. Dedicated good school staff can give it. History is a very valuable subject and keeps numerous doors open. Art keeps the art door open. If DD isn’t really wedded to art, (and she’s not) it’s the one to go, irrespective of what someone else did or didn’t do in the last century.

Where did I suggest she was being dragged to do French? I’m confused. All I meant was that if you ask the school which is better, history or art, they may be more inclined to say history if they are concerned about their EBacc numbers. I’m a big fan of a broad and balanced education, but the EBacc definition isn’t necessarily that.
I also feel quite strongly that no 13 year old should be being told that the subject choices they make now will limit the rest of their lives. It’s a recipe for huge stress and it’s plain wrong. They should be allowed to make the best decision they can with all the information available to them, even if that’s not the choice they were expected to make. There’s always a way back to a subject if they want to pick it up again later.

@RockyOfTheRovers You said you didn’t want French snd would have preferred art. It absolutely makes a difference what you choose at 13 if choices are not broad. Closing off MFL completely is a frequent one. Of course if you choose geography over history, you’ve closed off history. That’s how it works. It does make a difference to study at A level and degrees. So many young people have the wrong A levels for future study at competitive unis because they don’t do the best subject combinations. Aiming high starts with making the right choices. If that doesn’t remotely matter, do what you want. Of course.

no 13 year old should be being told that the subject choices they make now will limit the rest of their lives. It’s a recipe for huge stress and it’s plain wrong.

Trouble is @RockyOfTheRovers, their choices will make a huge difference in terms of what they can do going forward. That's fine tho - there isn't enough time in the day to study everything to a higher level. But yy if you give up (for example) French and German at 14, then you are pretty much closing the door on a carer as a secondary teacher of MFL. Hopefully that is fine. I didn't take art at school after year 8 - all fine as I had no interest or talent.

I guess if in later life, even at 16 or 18, I discovered a hitherto unknown burning desire to take up art at uni I could have - but it would have been a big struggle and I would surely have been on the back foot all the way, even with huge amounts of work.

It still sounds to me as tho the OP's DD is not keen to close off doors of learning - but she has no choice. If she wants to take art bc she loves it then it is a good choice. And dropping history is not an issue. But dropping it will make picking it p for A level that much harder - very difficult in fact. as long as she realises that then I think it's fine.

I think I’ve upset some people and I really didn’t mean to. I think I just have a different attitude to lifelong learning. I’ve known so many people (including myself) who’ve changed careers entirely, including some who reentered education years after bad GCSE results and ended up with a PhD. For myself, I can’t imagine not having some kind of learning on the go. There are so many ways to learn these days.
It just feels like it’s more accurate and more positive to tell children that, yes, it’s easiest if you get the choice right first time around, but if you don’t, you still have the chance to get to wherever you eventually decide you want to be, if you’re prepared to do the work.
GCSE options are important, because they define how you’ll be spending the next 2-3 years of your time. They don’t define the rest of your life.

No @RockyOfTheRovers you've not upset me dw. And I too retrained, in my 40s, had to go back to uni and then start my new role at the bottom. But it wasn't easy and if I had done at 22 what I did at 42 I would have had an easier ride for sure.

I think that there are always options, always ways forward, I do believe that. But I also think that 13yos need to know that this is the easier route and that that route, while possible, will be harder and may not turn out as you might hope. That's all.

Thank you everyone for all the new messages.

RockyOfTheRovers , that's just it. But it's not that 13 year olds should not be told that their life choices will be limited by what they choose now, but rather that it shouldn't be the case. Sadly, it is. And DD hates that. So do do I. We are very much 'learning for the sake of learning' people and I find it ridiculous that young teens should be put in such as position so early on.

Red Toothbrush, thanks for detailing your education trajectory. DD does sound similar. She's a jack of all trades, and her interests can be very intense but not necessarily long lasting. Focus is not her forte.

I have gently suggested to DD this weekend that it would make more sense to take History and forget Art (use it as a reserve). She's 'thinking about it'. I don't want her to feel pressured as she can be a bit too compliant at times. I'll get in touch with the Options lead at school and explain the situation. Of course, I'm aware that the school has its own targets, which as long as they run parallel to DD's best interests is fine with me.

The language thing is pretty much sorted. She could have French as a reserve instead of Art but that would just feel like a definite goodbye even to the possibility of doing art. (Plus she's planning on taking the GCSE exam for her home language as an external candidate).

The other option would be to drop Music, really. Then she could do History and Art. But that's muddying the waters again, which she downst need.

Her interests can be very intense but not necessarily long lasting. Focus is not her forte.

Bit of a curve ball given you've said that and perhaps totally out there as a suggestion but has there ever been any suggestion that she has inattentive ADHD? It presents differently in girls. Just a few bits you've suggested, make me go hmmm that's a bit familiar...

I could be totally barking mad, but yeah. It'll drive me insane if I don't ask even if I don't get a response.

Fwiw if she has trouble with focus and finishing projects because she starts off really intense but then quickly loses interest, GSCE or A-level Art are unlikely the best fits for her. This is really where I came completely unstuck with it. Showing idea progression didn't work for me - I'd launch into an idea for a final piece straight away and then found myself effectively having to work backwards from that to show my 'planning'. I didn't do as well as I should have as a result at a level (GCSE was ultimately ok for me, but I just didn't have the mindset to step it up - ability yes, just not equipped for slow idea progression).

Your daughter maybe completely different, but your comment about focus and intensiveness followed by quick loss of interest do make me ask whether she ultimately would have the patience / due diligence for planning.

It was a taught skill which was utterly useless in my job later and it ultimately served me well not to do all that faffing about!!! Ironically.

@stickygotstuck as a teacher, a mum of three and once a student let her do what she wants to do.
I still haven't forgiven my mum for 'gently nudging' me to do media studies instead of home economics and I wish I had gone with my gut.
My youngest is in first year at uni and did politics, film studies and history and studied none of them at gcse ( attended a special education school with minimal GCSE's) and came out with AAB.
Honestly it's not worth all the obvious angst.

@RedToothBrush , not a curve ball at all, we are aware the traits are all there. Hence the seemingly excessive input from us, it's difficult to strike a balance.

Thanks Stoma , she is doing what she wants. Only she wants too many things and it's not possible to do them all.

Does she know this too?

If she's anything like me, then the time restrictions and project work will kill a lot of her enjoyment of the subject.

If it is inattentive ADHD then linking everything together and seeing the world in a broad way is the feature from what I understand. It definitely would explain a reluctance to close doors. I ironically picked things which I ultimately found harder - and whilst I loved them I don't know it did me good in the long run. I'd have been equally happy doing something else. It's also a massive gift but I think being honest about your weaknesses is necessary. I'm only just beginning to put the pieces together and realise this!

History is the broad brush subject in helping you understand the world. You learn to understand the past, present and future with it. It has applications everywhere. It's almost the 'link' subject for me.

And doing art need not be discarded. She can still do it on her own terms. If she wants to keep it open as a subject she can. Just get her to build up a portfolio in her own time whilst doing GCSEs. That way, if she does decide she wants to come back to it, she's got a folder with some work in to demonstrate she can do it (and she can argue she can do art history with ease). It is the way to keep her options most open.

Are you pursuing a diagnosis?

Something of a game changer re my son

I would echo this as someone who isn't diagnosed (DS is currently under assessment hence the lightbulb).

Your daughter will probably do fine at GCSE art though would get frustrated with it at times but I think the step up from there is more difficult if you struggle with deadlines, lack of focus, finishing tasks etc.

Which does beg the question of just how much she loves it. She has to love it to pursue a career.

And if ADHD is in the mix, even if she's coping well now, getting good grades I do think it eventually catches up with you (especially at university when the emphasis is on self motivation and study).

Make sure it's on her radar and your radar and look at moving it forward.