Why is the culture of team sport toxic?

[MrsPhilDunphy]

I’m noticing a big focus on team sport in the private school my children go to, being selected for fixtures is everything and it tends to be the same kids.

My question is if team sport is meant to be about socialising, building team spirit, friendships etc. then why is it isolating those who may not necessarily be good at it? And some kids get picked on because they missed a shot or didn’t defend well… it’s enough to put my children off but I want them to continue for health and fitness.

We recently went to a match (against another school) where the other team were extremely intimidating, and pushing a lot. I understand competition but do it skilfully, why resort to pushing and shoving and intimidating?

I think it depends whether you're talking about primary or secondary age children? By secondary, team sport at DC's (private) school is about winning matches, not socialising and team work. So the team selected is comprised of the children who are best at the sport in question. DS's rugby A team is made up of boys who play rugby for clubs and are training 2-3 times a week. The football A team is made up of boys who play outside of school. They do field C & D teams for children who aren't so sporty so they still have the opportunity to play, but at A, and to some extent at B team level, the focus is on winning.

I think private schools are actually much better at this than state. State schools often just have one team per year whereas private schools with have A B C & D teams so pretty much all children who want yo play can do so.
My children are mostly in B teams but they enjoy sport and I am really glad they get the chance to play. In their state schools they were never picked.

My DS (15) recently gave up a team sport (club and school but mostly the same kids in both) despite being good at it due to the toxic nature of some of the players. During all the training sessions I never once heard the coaches talking about them being a team and supporting each other and I think a lot of the problem is about individualism in team sports and certain characters that think they are special.
Thankfully he has started a different sport now (not a 'team' sport but still working with a partner or 4 others at a time) which, while still competitive, the other people are also supportive and encouraging of each other, it is so refreshing.

DD has always preferred the lower teams as they are much less competitive and more supportive of each other. At senior school this does mean she doesn’t get many fixtures though, as they don’t seem to organise as many for the C and D teams unfortunately.
They recently had a netball match where the other team were getting very physical without being called out for ‘contact’, literally pushing people out of the way and grabbing players hair! The mind boggles!!

I think the point about the same kids being picked for everything is interesting too. I think this is because skills learnt in one sport are often transferable to others. So DS plays rugby for a club and A team at school, he also runs for an athletics club and is a competitive swimmer. He doesn't play football outside of school but hovers between the A & B school team because whilst he doesn't have the skill on the ball the club footballers have, he has the speed and fitness from running and swimming to run up and down continually for 90 mins (or however long a football match lasts) and understands the concept of marking his player/finding space to receive the ball/pass to an unmarked player in a good position to score - which he's learnt from rugby. Although I do think there is also probably an element of the sports staff earmarking some children as 'sporty' and other children as not - which is obviously a shame.

I’m baffled by the whole thing. Why on earth is it seen as good to excel at football etc? It’s the most useless skill in the workplace ever. Schools babble about teamwork and fitness while causing social isolation and injuries in compulsory team sports that make the brighter less ‘sporty’ children miserable.

I’ve told my child that, while it’s important to swim and jog, team sports are mostly enjoyed by people who aren’t very bright, and to focus his energy on coding, which he’s a genius at and I suspect will take him much further in life than kicking a ball back and forth 👀

I find the whole thing very odd.

I think it's about finding the right sport and the right club. My DC are sporty, my DD is now playing netball for a club with an amazing team spirit and ethos. She could go to another club which is a slightly higher standard but she absolutely loves this one. My DS has also moved football teams this season and is finding the new one better. They're at a non sporty state school so the whole teams / matches thing is not very competitive at school.

I must say, I am baffled by this comment. Just because someone is sporty, does not make them less bright. I am sure there are plenty bright sporty dc (my dd included!). She is sporty and top of her class (and recently won a math, logic and coding competition).

At the end of the day it is a competitive sport. They want to win. The children who are better at it will get chosen.
That said my dd’s private school run 3/4 different teams so that pretty much everyone who wants to can get involved. It’s quite inclusive.

@LeCarre what a ridiculous thing to tell your children. There are plenty of clever children who also excel at team sports. It's also unkind and likely to make your child walk around with a chip on their shoulder thinking they are superior to others.

Sport excellence is a big marketing tool for a lot of independent schools, with their best students playing at county, national and even international level. It therefore makes sense that the best are selected and it's highly competitive (although in my experience, it's the parents who are the most pushy and competitive, not the other students!)
I'd agree however that private schools are often better placed to field C&D teams for those who want to play, but aren't the most skilled.

Neither of my kids were sporty (techy & artsy) but I can see that the burning off energy/ getting fit is a good thing for all teenage kids. I've always thought that school sport shouldn't all be about competitive sport, but should also encourage health and fitness more - recreational running, cycling, yoga, fitness etc.
Both my sons were turned off sport at school by the dominance of the alpha males/jocks who seemed to rule the roost. However since leaving school they've both got into the gym/ fitness training more.

This isn't true though. Female CEOs over index as having played competitive sport when young. The skill isn't the point, it's the work ethic, discipline, culture, vision, leadership and ability to respond to failure. There are good teams and bad teams. The type of sport is largely irrelevant.

Most if not all team sports are good for physical health bar the sprains, broken bones etc, but you can get those running in the park. My DC played a range and what they got out of it was camaraderie, tactics and strategy, improved spatial awareness and the benefits of supporting each other. What they hated was bad refereeing, over aggressive players, over involved parents and incompetent teachers - and how successfully to manage some of it.

I'd say decent life lessons. I've always been into solo sports (swimming, diving, solo rowing) and it impressed me.

I appreciate it's different in elite sport and you can have toxic schools, teachers, parents and kids. And toxic sport bodies. If I were OP I'd talk with my DC about a sport they would like to do at w/es (if not boarding) and holidays.

Competitive sport and social sport aren't the same thing. What the Chelsea football team get out of playing is different from the Queens Head pub 7 a side team.

Same with the St Paul's cathedral choir being different to the local everybody welcome choir.

Or a local photography club from the Pullover prize competitors.

Different reasons for existing.

My DDs rugby team likes winning. They've also turned down matches as some players wouldn't be allowed to join in due to the Age/Sex regulations. Competitive and wanting the best fir the team.

I have a theory that this is about venal basic human nature and energy.

Man living in the wild in a cave would have needed to have a lot of energy that would get discharged naturally by running after food and away from danger and fighting, literally physcially fighting other people and animals, to survive.

Over time, that became unnecessary as society "civilised" and tribes were formed - this need to discharge that inherent energy got transformed into social violence and tribal wars.

Wars became less common so people but particularly men retained this need to discharge that violent energy. A social way of managing that is sport - including spectator sport. I've seen men punching the side of a stadium when their team has conceded a goal. This "tribal" behaviour around sport is modelled by adults in this way - they subscribe to the ideology of their "tribe" - their team.

The social modelling gets subconcisously passed down to young people playing in sport by their parents, society, those who train them and each other.

My theory anyway. I'd love to research this for a PhD or something.

Entirely depends on the school ethos - at my kids’ independent secondary they take everyone they can to matches. Occasionally they have to say ‘we’ve got too many, those that don’t do this week get priority next week instead’. They really don’t do badly considering - they do have A, B & C teams though. It’s a much more inclusive way of doing things which I think is way better.

wow what an odd comment. I am a parent of both non sporty and sport DC. The sporty one is arguably the most academic tbh. He has always done team sport, enjoys it and it keeps him fit. It has given him a circle of friends at uni and a busy social life. It has taught him that he can excel and also not - we all need to be able to meet with and deal with failure and success.

All of these are important and useful skills and aspects. There is a bit more to team sport than "kicking a ball back and forth".

Also some people are good at sport when they do not excel anywhere else, so I have seen it have a massive value in self-esteem for them. A love of some kind of sport is a good thing for a future healthy life. It's fine not to be sporty of course, but I don't see that that makes you clever as such.

OP I can't answer your question as my DC went to state school and there was usually only one team, for those who were keen. DS2 was on it, DS1 and DD were not. Never any hassle tho as far as I know.

Love the mumsnet obsession with coding. Playing football is a very useful skill to have socially, it is our national sport.

Totally agree.

I have no problem with the graded teams, but what I do have an issue with it the lack of kindness amongst the teams. My kid is often upset by others in the team moaning about his lack of skill. He’s a great runner but just isn’t great at football. Nobody calls the others out for not being good runners, so why is it acceptable in football and rugby?

@SirTarquinasTrevelyan I certainly feel that 13yr old DS seems far calmer after getting much of his teenage aggression/new found testosterone/teenage angst out on the rugby pitch!

Kids team sport (football anyway) outside school is toxic because it is normally run by unqualified, egotistic volunteer coaches on a power trip fantasy who couldn't coach their way out of a paper bag, take the kids that seem to be able to play without needing any input, pitch them against their own team mates, destroy any fledging talent and comradery that was there then dump them for a new player that hasn't been damaged yet by poorly regulated "grass roots" clubs.

But you can't say this in RL because the "coaches" are apparently akin to saints.

But private schools market themselves on different things. Didn't you know what their ethos was when you chose the school? Some private schools push forward the fact that they win everything, and some private schools advertise that they're inclusive and thus don't win anything - parents can choose where to send their children there knowing that.

As an aside, my dds state primary school was brilliant for inclusivity. It was a 'hands up who wants to play in the match' system.