Why is the culture of team sport toxic?

[MrsPhilDunphy]

I’m noticing a big focus on team sport in the private school my children go to, being selected for fixtures is everything and it tends to be the same kids.

My question is if team sport is meant to be about socialising, building team spirit, friendships etc. then why is it isolating those who may not necessarily be good at it? And some kids get picked on because they missed a shot or didn’t defend well… it’s enough to put my children off but I want them to continue for health and fitness.

We recently went to a match (against another school) where the other team were extremely intimidating, and pushing a lot. I understand competition but do it skilfully, why resort to pushing and shoving and intimidating?

I don’t know of a single private school near me - and I’m in London where there are a lot in a 5 mile radius, who would take children out of lessons to train. Sometimes they do miss lessons for fixtures, DS is competing at London Schools cross country on Wednesday which is an all day event, but he is expected to catch up in his own time. If he doesn’t, he will be off the team. He’s OK with that, we’re OK with that as parents. It happens maybe 4-5 times a year and his grades are currently excellent. The same would apply if he missed a day through illness - he’s never ill as he’s incredibly fit and healthy.

I find it very hard to believe that a school would take kids out of maths and English classes in order to play sport. Private schools are all about academic achievement so this just sounds very strange to me, maybe the school your children attend is just not a good school 🤷‍♀️

Not all private school’s achieve high academic results, it depends on the area. Just look at the league tables. In our area there are two selective state schools achieving better academic results. The reasons our school achieves lower is because the parents who send their kids here don’t prioritise academic results, they are obviously more interested in sport and extra curricular activities. Which is why we chose this school. We are taking care of the academics ourselves. Tuition is a massive industry, just look at the 11 plus forum. Clearly there are a lot of parents doing this, and this continues, parents may not admit it though. Instagram/Facebook pages, kumon, atom learning, parents are paying thousands for their kids to do well in exams, it’s a massive industry, it wouldn’t exist if ‘private schools’ were achieving high grades, parents seem to have the money. But this is going off tangent, my post was about team sport in school…

So if you chose the school specifically because of the interest in sport why are you surprised at the importance placed on it? I must admit no way would I pay for private school if I then had to pay a tutor on top.

What a horrible thing to think and to pass on to your DCs. I wonder if you'd have the same attitude if your DS did happen to enjoy team sports??

generally, the skills that make you good at sports, i.e. hand-eye coordination and so on, are fairly transparently irrelevant when it comes to adult professional and personal development

Disagree, most team sports involve being able to gel with a bunch of random people all of whom have different strengths, weaknesses, personalities, backgrounds etc. Sometimes there are character clashes and you have to learn how to put those to one side and work together for the good of the overall team. Exactly the sort of thing you often need to do in a professional environment. I was first exposed to this environment from the age of 7 when I started to play mini rugby. I was quiet as a mouse at first, not very confident but with encouragement from both my parents and the coaches I found my voice and became comfortable in large groups and talking to adults. I learned to deal with disappointment, losing and not being a graceless arse in victory. I was not the fastest or the strongest in the various teams I played for over the years but I worked bloody hard and pushed myself in training when I felt I had nothing left. Team sports (rugby and rowing in my case) have left me with dozens of positive memories, life long friendships and confidence in dealing with people from all walks of life. My sporting journey now sees me coaching both adults and juniors and I am still learning better ways to communicate , how to simplify complex instructions, how to pick people up emotionally and build confidence etc. Again skills I can carry over to the work place. Sure computer club, chess club or maths club will help kids develop interpersonal skills and confidence but I can't see that they will achieve that to the same degree as playing competitive sports.

@LeCarre I don’t suppose it is seen as a useless skill within the world of football playing, coaching, mentoring or as a pe teacher. But maybe you don’t see a job in sports as a real job?

@MrsPhilDunphy But maybe Emma Radacunu wasn’t at a school that had to heavily market itself to get enough customers (don’t know where she went to school but feel like it wasn’t a fee paying one but I could be wrong!) I wonder if you are being a bit naive about what fee paying schools have to do in terms of marketing. Parents buy in to a package depending what is important to them and it sounds like lots of the customers of this school like sporting success and visible results.

And would your kids be in those orchestras, succeed in those music competitions etc if they were tone deaf and shit at it? It’s not just team sports that are competitive. Sounds like you chose school poorly.

I think you’ve answered your own question OP. You’ve specifically chosen a school which places greater importance on sport than academics. Personally, I think that’s quite a niche choice. Most parents opting for private school, place primary importance on academics, then the available extra circular is secondary. We chose a school which focuses on academics first, with a strong focus and superb facilities & teaching in sport because that’s what my DC do for fun. Other parents look for a school with academics first, then music/art/drama as secondary, depending on their DC’s ability and interest.

If you’ve picked a school which puts sport first and foremost above everything else. I’m surprised that you’re surprised it’s an extremely competitive school when it comes to sport and they always field their best players. If your DC aren’t especially sporty and the school isn’t academic, why did you choose it?

I'm finding this whole thread just weird: you chose a sporty school but then complain about the fact it is sporty and then because you've chosen sport over academics you have to pay for a tutor.

All I want is for my kids to not be put off by school team sport because it’s too aggressive. Just for the record they are also part of a local sports club where they play matches etc. this is a much nicer environment, competitive but playing nicely, it’s run by volunteers.

Just curious, what sports do the school engage in that are 'aggressive'?

Wow! Condescending much? Everybody's good at something. So your kid's academic - good for him. Other kids will be better than him at sport - good for them. No need to be nasty.

I agree with others, I'm a bit puzzled @MrsPhilDunphy

You say in your OP that you "have noticed a big focus on sport" and yet later you say that you chose the school because of its sporting offer. If that's the case I am not sure why you are surprised at the focus on sport.

Also yy cannot imagine ever paying thousands for private school and then having to "take care of the academics" myself via tutors. Still, each to their own. I hope you think you are getting value for money from it.

well, there can be an element of that sort of thing in team sports, I agree. but the physical element is always paramount. I suppose the extreme example is something like track and field - e.g. my idiot dog could smoke any human ever born in a 100 metre dash but, given that responding to simple 'sit' type commands remains stubbornly beyond him, I wouldn't rate his chances of transferring his psychical prowess to, say, a corporate environment.

It’s a private school though - you chose it.
I think it’s a bit funny to pay for a school then complain about the same kids being selected! Well yes - it’s a private school, they need to win to attract parents’ money.
It sounds like the school is fine, and quite normal - but it’s not the school for you. Is it the school for your child though?

This 100% as confirmed by my recent conversations with our Headmaster. I was discussing with him why they should shuffle teams. DD never gets to B team let alone A.

She is forever stuck in a team half of them don't want to be on the pitch in the first place. She get placed in C team due to her being small and low stamina

I have two boys, who went through state schools. Both were learning football skills from a young age through footy tots, then a local club. When they got to primary school there was an infants playground and a junior playground. Both had an area where football was allowed, but they were always dominated by older boys who didn't want the younger boys spoiling their game. This is where the toxicity starts, and it's as old as the hills - older boys dominate younger boys. The younger boys gradually have to work their way up into the game. The ones that don't do football outside of school don't stand a chance and are sidelined. My younger son decided, age 6, that he knew everything there was to learn about football and stopped his extra-curricular, which worked out badly for him socially as he moved up though primary school. My eldest kept it up, but was tall and unaggressive, so usually in goal - he managed to get by on the fringes of the popularity contest, but was sensitive to the sometimes bruising comments.
None of this was great for their self esteem. However, age 11, both my boys took up another team sport outside of school. It's a minority sport in this country, but big elsewhere, and we happened to have a strong local club, lead by passionate coaches and parents from other European countries. All of a sudden my boys were on the winning team, which was a great boost to their confidence. Both ended up on the regional and then the national junior squad. They have travelled abroad to tournaments, where they usually do badly, but in this country they're at the top of their game. Meanwhile, most of their ex-primary school friends will never play more than local league football. So, my advice to anyone finding school sport toxic would be to look outside of school. There are so many other sports that children can excel at!

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Selective state schools, aka grammar schools, usually do get the best results as they cream off the brightest kids. Sometimes sending your kid to private school isn’t just about exam results. Sometimes it’s for the smaller class sizes or the more holistic approach or the greater sporting opportunities. Not everyone goes private just for results.

My kids are at private. Chosen primarily for good academics and ethos of school.
Sport is an integral part of what they offer. They have recently come in the top 15 of schools for sport in whatever table is used to judge such things. They do NOT take kids out of lessons for extra training. Some fixtures are played in the week but only really in the junior school.
One of mine loves sport and does as much as she can squeeze in. The other doesn’t. She has found many other things to do - dance, theatre and music is also very big alongside creative subjects and charity stuff and science and maths clubs.
Keeping in the girls active is (quite rightly) an important part of what school
offers.

Foorball here at least seems not a great influence. Friends kid was a bit cheeky, but time on out of school clubs there was swearing, rude hand gestures. Just changed.this was at about 8.

Some kids really do have brains the sports the friends the looks.

And some of the sport and academics is the competitive nature and not overreacting to losing.
Dd isnt great at sport, is clever but wont push herself for anything.

It's an excellent question and I think 90 percent of people will try to justify it but I'm not buying it.

Let me tell you a little story. When my son was 11 he was chosen for the top basketball team. He was like, "what? No that's a mistake, Mum". I thought so too given that he was pretty hopeless!

However, he was indeed in the tip team. I went to watch and he was clearly the worst. But. The kids kept making a point of passing him the ball. And when he finally scored (hallelujah 🙌) they leapt on him and all chanted his name.

There was nothing more to it than great kids being sporting. And an absolutely beautiful school. He was like, "mum, we'd have got way more points if I wasn't in the team" lol but he also came away feeling a million bucks. If that's not the point of being part of a team, I don't know what is.

Kind kids can teach us a lot.