SW London Private & Grammar: applying for year 7 in 2023

[QuiteAJourney]

Following up from
www.mumsnet.com/talk/secondary/4716365-sw-london-private-grammar-applying-for-year-7-in-2023-part-iii?page=40

Sharing the journey

Jibberty your message and approach sounds very balanced - well done.

For someone outside of London all this tutoring and years of practice seems madness. It is a self perpetuating industry. Parents are panicking their kids won't get in so apply for 6+ schools and so have to prepare for months / years and throw everything into it in the hope their children will squeak over the line. Then complain that the school leaves them hanging on for so long whilst the school interviews the other 2000 applicants for 90 places who have all applied to 6+ schools..

Does no one see the irony in this?

A friend of mine is a maths teacher at grammar school and she says some should really not be there but have been heavily tutored for the tests.

My advice would be move outside of London and get off this hamster wheel..

Just to add here, we did this process in 2020 for 2021 entry and dd underperformed and her confidence was at that time rock bottom for various reasons. She did get some offers and even offered a waitlist position later on in one of the top schools, but we decided to opt out and go for our local state school. Best decision. Confidence is up, doing lots of extra curricular especially sports, in top sets and a nice bunch of friends. Please realize not every 10 and 11 year old is ready to bloom at this stage and this 11 plus process is very harsh. Also being in a more relaxed environment with children with less intensely ambitious parents suits some of us more.
Best of Luck and don't worry. All will work out!

We didn't use tutors for the 11 plus unlike the vast majority at her top West London prep. I was kicking myself but really it's crazy people do this. We now have a maths tutor which I can justify as we don't pay fees and the class sizes are larger. I feel the process is a scam. Absolutely many don't deserve the places and will need tutoring and managing for the rest of their lives.
Dd does LAMDA and sports outside school as well as in school. I do not think she will be disadvantaged at all in her education, quite the opposite. Especially when it comes to university applications. Please do consider your local state schools. In London many are excellent.

@QuiteAJourney At this rate you may need to start another thread to this topic before Feb 10th

@eglantine7 really good point and kudos to you that you chose a school that was right for your DC and she is thriving there - given Uni choices, this may be the best thing

@MrPickles73 "My advice would be move outside of London and get off this hamster wheel.."

At one point I have thought about this, but the mums outside M25 should be worried if London mums flock out...

@Turquoiseturtle1234 I am pretty sure that would be the case ... I remember an exchange with @KindergartenKop as to whether this would be the thread when our DCs get (hopefully) lots of offers... I thought (and even more so now) that these thread is too much of a release and would be too active not to be "filled in" by the 10th Feb!

Branding kids at 11 years of age based on schools is utterly ridiculous. We don’t realize the craziness of this process until we have to explain 11+ to a non UK person. Like my friend in Europe pointed out. She said that her 13 year old probably doesn’t know as much Maths or English as my 10 year old but she doesn’t know any Londoner who has made waves in the field of technology, academics, literature etc because of passing 11+ and getting admission in a super selective.

And ironicly a lot of Europeans in London joined this unique journey...

@eglantine7 couldn't agree more

Also with @Workhar . The UK system is absolutely insane and anyone with any sense with a magic wand should erase the entire thing and start again.

I'm astonished at the number of people (that I know IRL, I'm not talking about people here) who genuinely don't seem to have EVER considered a state school, despite the fact that many state schools in SW London get better results than some of the private ones that cost 20 grand a year or more. Won't even visit an open day and make their own minds up.

I have been through this three times and can honestly say we never used tutors. To me, it can be counterproductive because no tutor is going to understand the way maths is taught at the school, for instance - or specifically what they have been doing that week. So, if they are teaching things one way and the school another, it just overloads the kids and confuses them. As for things like VR and NVR, the papers can be found on the internet or the Bond papers or whatever, and it's just a case if working through. You don't need to pay someone £50 per hour to watch your child do Bond papers!

Having said this, mine were all in a prep (albeit a non-selective, very mixed ability one). I do recognise that state schools may well offer zero 11 plus exam exposure and so parents feel the need to have something going on outside school. Also mums / dads don't have the time quite often, so throwing money at a tutor can take away some anxiety and make them feel they are at least doing something. Often the tutor is more use as support for the mums, rather than actually helping the kids in any tangible way.

At the prep mine were at they had a Maths paper as homework during the week and they did a book called 'Schofield and Sims' on the weekend. Every week there would be a comprehension task too. VR and NVR was one lesson per week in school. All this started around in the summer term of Year 5. It felt like a lot of work as it was.

I had one go through LU. I can't fault the academic side if things and we are very grateful for that, but my personal take, looking back (and this is only a personal view!) is that socially, it's a tough environment there for many. Retrospectively, DC describes it as "aggressively West London." DC actively avoided unis such as Durham and Edinburgh which have large groups of what they call "West London private school types" who often tend to stay in these groups once at uni. DC was mostly very average at LU, but came into their own in about year 10 and got into Oxbridge where it's more diverse (socially). General impressions are the uni people are more 'normal' and 'less neurotic' as there are all types from all over the U.K.

I have DC at G&L and I don't really know what the difference is, but they have been much happier socially. I would say they have thrived socially, rather than survived socially, if they makes sense. It feels somehow 'kinder' there. But again, purely anecdotal and I'm sure other girls have had different experiences. A lot of it is just luck really.

@Link2022 we did the free trial period for 5 days with the mocks to get an idea of how he was doing, it ranged from 105 (non verbal) to 130 (verbal). But when my dd first did a mock she got a 100 (when she was end of year 5)!!!! But quickly shot up to 120s then by the end 130s-142 (well the 142 was math a few times, once in English - never verbal or non verbal). So I was not too worried w my ds. I decided to do the cheapest option for now, which is only math and english, and will do the full package option when summer hits, as I think it will be more beneficial then for him. We did the full package option for my dd from the start bc we were short on time, but I feel like we have a lot of time for my ds. They say to get your CAT score, you at 8 points to the Atom score. It sounds like your ds is doing well and off to a great start. One thing I might do different with my son is get a face to face tutor. I am not sure he will do well on a group zoom tutor session. I have also decided to put my ds in a creative writing class since he hates writing. He is not bad at it, but he does not like to put the pen to paper. He LOVES the creative writing session (he has done two so far). I want to try and nip the aversion to writing now, or it will probably just get worse.

Yes, this is true too. Some parents do not realize what it takes to get into one of these top schools. I have seen it with a couple dc who did not get past the first rounds anywhere they applied (from different state schools). I am not sure what they did exactly. I know they had tutors longer then we had....but perhaps they did not do anything else to supplement? Also, let me be clear....we did not do just 1-2 hours a week. My dd had a group zoom tutor session weekly that was 2 hours. She would then do some Atom (usually an hour or so a week), so she would do usually 3 hours a week total and more often 4 hours a week total in year 6. So my dd was middle ground for prep in the big debate.

I think the best advice is do mocks to see where your dc is at to start, know the target scores for your schools and then work to be at or above those marks. That is what we did. I also told my dd if she does not hit those marks we will not apply to the schools that require those marks....no point really. I think some of the parents applied anyway in the hopes they will get lucky on exam day.

“Top schools" don't ensure that every child becomes an academic high-flier. They deliver education in a way that suits academic high-fliers and enables them to meet their potential, which is not at all the same thing”

for me best comment in here.. that says it all!

Is over-tutoring really as widespread widespread as some of these posts suggest? It was such a struggle to persuade DD to spend time on 11+ prep and it would have been traumatic to even approach some of the efforts preplex is suggesting. DD refused to practise any NVR as she said it was pointless and didn't teach her anything (annoying and unhelpful, but of course she's right - it doesn't).

How on earth are you getting children to put up with it all?

And how do you stay on top of it all if you have more than one DC and both parents are working? I can't even stay on top of breakfast

Agree this is the best message in recent days. Most good schools will allow your child to achieve their full potential. Its about what environment is most conducive to that as well as holistically supporting their interests and well-being / mental health.

I'm only reporting one anecdote here, of course, so it's hardly proof of anything at all, but DC reported a conversation she'd had at Tiffin with another child sitting the exam. She was, I think, trying to make conversation so asked what she liked to read, and this girl said "I'm not allowed to read fiction because my mum says I have to study"

Possibly the most depressing thing I've heard ...

Haha! I agree. Getting a now grumpy (in the morning) teen out of the door is a mission in itself.

I do have 4 older children, who have now all left school and university. It just wasn't as bonkers as it appears to be nowadays and honestly most applied for 2 or 3 at most. A friend of my youngest DD applied for 10, yes really, which I remain staggered at 4 years down the line. I mean there's hedging bets and being ridiculous..

My others were not tutored, didn't do any practice even, very few did back in 2003-2008 tbh, which I guess made for a much more level playing field for all.

It's never going to stop now I don't think, the panic that ripples constantly though state and prep parents is depressing at best, probably harmful at worst and it's clear from everyone's posts here that your stress levels are very high, and I'm so sorry you have to do this.

Anyway, I really do wish all your DC the very best, they will be fine, they will get a place and they will be in the right one for them too in almost every case. I have everything crossed for you all for that looming February day, and hope you and your DC enjoy every minute of the next stage in their education.

I never tutored my DS in 2018, he was at a prep and I didn’t need to do anything more with him. He got 5 offers and I felt stupid at the time making him sit so many schools when clearly I didn’t need to but the hype of the 11+ can make people panic! I vowed I wouldn’t sit my other son for so many but the situation is far worse now so I have. I wish I didn’t have to as it’s very stressful for the children. I have tutored this DS in English only as his prep have not been able to get him to a good enough level, he really needs the assistance and 1 to 1. But only one hour a week. His prep would set them one hour of either English, maths, VR and NVR each night. And weekends. Plus they did one maths paper a week at school and one story/comp. Somehow I feel the 11+ process has now become a silly situation with many sitting lots of schools and then you feel you have to jump on the bandwagon. Not to mention the money you have to pay to register at all these schools. I don’t think it’s ever going to change for the better. I’m just glad that this is my last experience of it but how I wish it could be changed for the future. It’s just not pleasant for anyone and brings out the bad in some parents and makes children feel crap about themselves and pretty miserable in the run up. I’m hoping for one offer, would be happy with that. And a local one would be nice too but it worries me the distance people are travelling now to get to schools. All I can say to reassure people is if you’re on a waiting list, they do move. I turned down 4 offers and one very last minute as we couldn’t decide between two schools. I feel bad about that but I like to think we made someone happy that day. Good luck to all those waiting now. I cannot wait for this to be over.

@maincrop
"DD refused to practise any NVR as she said it was pointless and didn't teach her anything (annoying and unhelpful, but of course she's right - it doesn't)."

I agree NVR is a bit pointless in some sense.
But to give an example, HBS, the most popular grammar school in England (in terms of applicants), first round entrance exam most weighted on 18 NVR questions (8 mins in total), and if you get 3-4 questions wrong you are most probably out. Do you think the 3000+ DDs all like NVR? How many you think will genuinely good at that without practice to get at least 14 questions right within 8 minutes.

I won't force my DD to a subject if she strongly against it, but I just want to honestly point out the efforts majority parent might have to take if they want a top selective school in the coming years.

And if you want to avoid NVR, probably non selective state school is good enough. And you might need to filter out a lot of selected private schools in London until you can find one that doesn't have any NVR in their selection process.

And I gave the sample NVR papers to my colleagues as taster (one from imperial and the another cantab math graduate ).. Guess what they both did less than 10 question right within 8 minutes..

NVR slowly slowly not part of 11+… top schools getting rid of it 😉

“And if you want to avoid NVR, probably non selective state school is good enough. And you might need to filter out a lot of selected private schools in London until you can find one that doesn't have any NVR in their selection process.”

funny enough quite the opposite
Hampton - non NVR
st Benedict- NVR

🤔

NVR is not pointless. I would make sure your dd knows that, as they must understand what to look out for the exams. Doing some prep for it will help for sure. I told my dd before if she wants to get into certain schools she needs to reach the target scores, if she does not, we will not apply to the schools...end of. I am not wasting my time or money. So by the time it was registration time she was ready. We have 3 dc and my dd had to make do studying and taking mock exams with a noisy background. I felt bad about that, a lot of noise when she was doing her tutoring as well. My 3 year old makes more noise when we tell her to be quiet! However, it made it so my dd learned to focus even if there is distraction. I don't work though, so not sure how parents that work full time manage. I guess they would have to do it in the evenings, which a lot of times we had to do anyway as my dd had activities too.

All the pretest ISEB or CEM or consortium school will have NVR, you have to skip those if you want to not do NVR