SW London Private & Grammar: applying for year 7 in 2023

[QuiteAJourney]

Following up from
www.mumsnet.com/talk/secondary/4716365-sw-london-private-grammar-applying-for-year-7-in-2023-part-iii?page=40

Sharing the journey

@LoveMyADHD If you look at St Paul's ISI report from a few years ago the school themselves state the the top half the cohort is in the top 3% of the ability range (which equates to a CAT score of circa 128) and that virtually all are in the top 10%.

@knopka Dulwich Prep London (the standalone prep school not Dulwich college) typically have lots of space for year 7. They go until year 8. Its a terrific school but they lose lots of boys for the 11+ these days, hence why you can typically find a spot in the final two years. That should give you time to figure out what state / grammar / private options make sense once you are over here. I have multiple friends with boys at the school and they rate it very highly.

Am I seeing mums (or a mum?) trying to persuade others to under prepare, and a mum desperately trying to convince prospective 11+ parents to know the truth?

Hats off to all the parents who step out and shared their honest opinions/truth on the efforts took on this process, and plus those lurking parents:

Don't feel bad if you see some amazing MN experience that had little prep and go to the top schools where you have to fight for this journey with your DCs every single day.

Don't feel bad if you see your DCs CAT score (state school won't have it anyway) is much lower than MN quoted numbers.

Don't feel bad if you and your kids earned a place in top school while others accusing you work a little bit too hard.

If that's aimed at me, then no I'm not. I have no more need for the bear fight that is 11+. I was simply countering what I did (or rather didn't) do for MY child. If one feels their child needs hours and hours of tutoring each week for a year or more to get into whatever school, then that's their lookout.

I know of perhaps 2 or 3 parents who tutored their kids to hell and back for schools. The majority either didn't do much more than bond books and time management skills or did a sensible 2-3 hours a week slow and steady prep over a couple of years.

Prep or don't prep, but posters jumping on the stage and shouting down all who don't conform to their way, accusations of lying about what/how much etc has been done are really adding nothing but a distinctly sour element to what SHOULD be a thread of support and advice for all.

To clarify - Plenty of state schools do the CAT4 tests and to say they don't is incorrect.

@PreplexJ every dc is different and some need more prep, others less. It does not make it right or wrong. What everyone is saying here is, you keep insisting others are lying, which is wrong. Parents are sharing their experiences. TBH it is not very helpful to insist that all do the 1-2 hours a day. I was terrified at the start of the 11+ when a family member told me dc at her dd prep were studying 1 hour a day and 2 hours a day during holidays, dc starting from year 4 etc. This made me feel like we do not stand a chance because my dd only started END of year 5 (bc we did not know we would do the 11+). I decided that I would NOT take that route of so much prep, because I felt if my dd belonged in a super academic school she would get in with the amount of prep she felt comfortable doing. If future parents think you have to do 1-2 hours a day or your dc will fail, that just makes it all overwhelming. Yes, some kids might need the 1-2 hours a day, but some kids are fine with 3-4 hours a week. And just because a dc does 3-4 hours a week, does not mean they will only aim for schools outside the top 50. And not every parent wants their dc to go to to St Pauls. We opted not to apply, as I did not think it would be the right match for my dd. Parents apply to where they think their dc will thrive and do well. AND I did not want my dd to over prep and get into a school where she would struggle to keep up. I wanted her to get into where she is a good fit naturally, not forced. Some parents/dc are fine to do the 1-2 hours a day and some prefer not to take this route. There is no right or wrong way, as long as the dc are happy.

@Jibberty "Plenty of state schools do the CAT4 tests and to say they don't is incorrect."

Maybe some pecific cases 3 years ago but definitely not plenty then or now. Other state schools feel free to comment on this

I think they sometimes do but don't share the scores. Mine did something but not sure what it was

In my Borough I can confidently say that around half of the state primary schools DO do CAT4 testing. Maybe not in yours but why do you feel the need to declare everyone who is not towing your line is lying?

I didn’t look at Sutton Mocks but interested now, was the feedback helpful? Did anybody else do a mock with a group they would recommend? Did your dc do any group tutoring? I have started my ds on atom learning (year 4) encouraging him to do the recommended amount of learning journeys per week. What else would you do in year 4 if you did it over again? With my dd I didn’t start until spring year 5 and it felt intense.

Unfortunately, our state school does not do CAT tests. If they did, it would have been very useful at the start to get an idea of level when applying to schools. Thankfully, I was able to get an idea via Atom mocks for this. The only test our dc school does is the SATs and they do not even give scores for those mocks...its almost like they do not want you to know how your dc scores (I think you will be allowed to know the score in the end....I hope so anyway!). And when I looked at the mock paper, it was super easy, nothing to compare to the 11+......I assume CATs is more difficult then SATs....but no experience so I do not know.

@SamPoodle123

Perhaps should stop arguing 1-2 hours a week vs 1-2 hours a day. Some parents won't do the maths right I'm afraid.

But you have to an admit that there is a huge gap in terms effort required among a large group parents that already shared their experience in the thread. Some of the parents would be the majority case and some other must be exceptional case.

The forthcoming parents who may take those exceptional case at face value may have to find the truth in hard way.

Since it is a support thread, perhaps we should focus on helping the prospetive 11+ parents how should they find out as early as possible what is the truth effort required for their DCs - then they can find the best schools for their abilities (natural + a bit hard work)

Totally agree!

Gut feel comes into as well. I'm sure DD would have coped fine academically at G&L but it was the only school I really didn't like at the Open day and didn't take her to look round it. Others will have had the same experience at the school she ended up at, which I loved from the outset!
We're very lucky to have a wide range of schools and how parents approach the whole process is up to them!

Well I'm not sure who qualify lying - incorrect vs definitely not?

Sounds like we are in similar situations....my dd also did not prep until end of year 5. We did group online tutoring for her via zoom and that worked for her. I am not sure that would work for my son. I will not begin any tutoring for her him until year 5, probably from Jan or perhaps a little later (unless I feel he needs it). ATM I have him doing some english/math atom learning journeys only 15 minutes at a time 2-3 times a week. He enjoys earning the coins and because his state school is a year behind, I figure mine as well let him do some math and English. In the summer I will have him do the Atom mocks to see where he is at. I will then continue the the journeys for year 5, but will probably add in the verbal and non verbal. Basically, taking the slow and steady approach. I do not feel the need to do the mad tutoring with him, but as we know he will take the 11+ now, we decided to start Jan of year 4 with a little prep. I would have probably started the little prep w my dd as well if we knew...but she seems to have done fine with the prep she did (I hope so anyway!! we will know for sure Feb 10th).

I found the feedback is OK - it kind of suggest the subjects topic your kid require improvement.
But most useful is the exam condition and large cohort intake across the london. It does tell you what your bright DCs position relative to the cohort. This will help you thinking what is the realistic chance and what the target sets of school should be and how much time you require to prep. Then focus on these after that.

If I would do it again, I will probably not prepping grammar school at all (too stress) and yes probably doing atom learning earlier, encouraging a lot more reading time (she is avid reader but apparently not enough) from year 3-4.

For prospective 11+ parents, I concur that taking the Sutton mock is a good first step, I think the earliest one is in May, and you would know, whether the effort you spent was enough (whether 1 hour a week or 1 hour a day). Over 1000 sat the mock and I think it is quite representative.

If you score within say top 20% in that with minimal effort up to that point (say 1-2 hour a week), then you have good chance for good schools (except the very top ones) even you continue with minimal effort. If you are within top 10% say, then good chance for the very top one (private or grammar) but since everyone will step up a bit after that time, maybe you also spend a few more hours every weekend.

If the results disappoint you, then you still have a few months including the summer holiday to catch up. And there are several mock tests.

Only that the mock tests don't test VR and NVR (but many schools don't test anyway) and creative writing.

@AC7001 "Only that the mock tests don't test VR and NVR (but many schools don't test anyway) and creative writing."

Yes Sutton Mock probably good for SW London schools - but for some North London Grammars or some private, you need VR or NVR so be aware of that too.

Also, because usually only those aiming at selective schools (grammar or private) will take the mock, the average standard is higher than the whole year 6 cohort. If you score in top 20%, my guess is that your child will be in top 10% of the entire Year 6 cohort.

And my DD was broaderline of 10% in Sutton Mock (that is before our proper prep from May)

So 1-2 hour daily prep for 6 months would be my
experience. This is the benchmark.

My son loves doing the vr on atom learning and would choose that every time, so might be worth also doing the vr/nonverbal. We signed up for the atom mock tests and they have year 4 iseb - (I think they are 20 minutes for each section) I had my son do them (not in one sitting) he scored around 110 which I was surprised by because his cats are 125-135 so wondering if the mock test results are accurate - hope not. Let me know when your son tries it!

@Link2022 "he scored around 110 which I was surprised by because his cats are 125-135"

This is inline Atom score - 7 to 8 points is the CAT equivalent

Found from friends, that boys prep are more transparent than our DC only girls school. They told the group average marks, the marks to aim for if they want to go to London secondary schools. Clear and concise with tutor to assist if required.
Just do what is right for your child and do understand there is some underreporting of prep, as I found out that one kid’s nanny was an English GCSE teacher on a short sabbatical.So whose English and verbal reasoning would have a better coach. Another lovely granny, was an ex headteacher and very involved in grandkids education from year 2. One mother taking a sabbatical from a STEM job and helping their 3 kids in maths. So they may only do less prep or tutor but in reality have been doing this a lot longer and may be more effective than my personal attempt.
It is great people sharing their different guide line of prepping so each future 11+ families can tailor it to their preferences, family lifestyles etc.

Don't feel bad if you see some amazing MN experience that had little prep and go to the top schools where you have to fight for this journey with your DCs every single day.

Don't feel bad if you see your DCs CAT score (state school won't have it anyway) is much lower than MN quoted numbers.

While there will inevitably be exceptions, I'm going to very gently suggest that if a DC has much lower CAT scores than is typically quoted for a "top school" and they have to "fight every single day" for several years in order to to get through the entrance process at such a school, then there is a significant risk that they won't thrive if they do get in. Being towards the bottom of a cohort of very able children in a competitive environment isn't a recipe for healthy self-esteem.

There sometimes seems to be an unspoken assumption amongst parents that "top schools" provide some sort of one-size-fits-all "package" of excellent education and if you can get your child into the school so that they can access that "package", they will automatically do well - and therefore getting the child in at all costs becomes the aim. "Top schools" don't ensure that every child becomes an academic high-flier. They deliver education in a way that suits academic high-fliers and enables them to meet their potential, which is not at all the same thing.

@TaliskerTalisker "if a DC has much lower CAT scores than is typically quoted for a "top school" and they have to "fight every single day" for several years in order to to get through the entrance process at such a school"

Sorry they are separate paragraphs - I'm not suggesting low CAT score kids prepping years or years to get into top school.

I merely suggest some MN cases reported in MN here is exceptional case.