Page 18 | SW London Private & Grammar: applying for year 7 in 2023

readingcat · 23/01/2023 13:29

The relentless competition for London 11+ places and associated industry of preparatory courses, subscription websites, revision materials, tutoring etc. etc. exposes children to the kind of pressure and boredom that can damage natural curiosity and a love of learning. Worse, it risks having a deleterious effect on child mental health, especially for a generation of kids just emerging from the educational disruption and unhappiness of a pandemic, which took a huge toll on them. Unfortunately the industry is driven to a significant degree by us: anxious parents who are desperately trying to do our best for our kids and who sometimes face an uneven playing field. Most of us, I am sure, felt we had little choice other than to buy into Atom, order Bond books etc., driven on perhaps by school-gates (or MN!) chatter about who was doing what. However, I think one has to be reasonable and realistic about what is ultimately in the child’s best interests.

I taught for a long time in the selective London independent sector and was involved with 11+ examining and assessment. My view is that if a child really needs a heavy amount of tutoring to meet the standard of x or y school then it may not be in their interests to be in that environment. Over the years I taught some exceptionally bright students, many good, able kids (most of the cohort), and some who were struggling, unhappy, perhaps still being tutored yet always feeling that they couldn’t cut it. I have no doubt that, had they been in a less selective or fast-paced school, they would have done much better academically, socially and emotionally.

Fwiw, this is what I did with my (privately educated) DC for 2023 entry. Breaks and bribes were included in all study sessions. DC is very good at English and VR, but has struggled with Maths and some aspects of NVR:

1 hour’s Maths tuition pw, term-time only, from January of Y5;
1 hour daily five days a week during 2 (of 3) weeks of the Y5 Easter holidays (key skills and beginning to look at practice papers);
1-2 hours four or five days a week during the Y5-6 summer holidays (3 weeks off whilst abroad or staying with relatives);
A short course (three mornings) on NVR from a local provider during the summer holidays;
2-3 hours Saturdays mornings Y6 September and October (practice papers).
During the autumn term, DC’s school (a prep) set regular Eng/Maths/Reasoning hw and gave them a 40-minute Reasoning lesson a week.

I did not use Atom, but relied on GL practice papers from Amazon, and bought in a few tests from PreTest Plus (more consistent, better designed than Atom, in my view). In terms of workload, I felt the above was quite a lot, and certainly the maximum I could expose DC to without causing excess stress and unhappiness. I think I did the most I could do in order to enable DC to have a decent crack at some good schools without cracking up. I resented doing it, though, as 11+ drilling is so counter to loving learning for its own sake.

For reference, I know parents who did both much more and much less, and kids have differing levels of resilience, of course.

LoveMyADHD · 23/01/2023 13:41

PreplexJ · 23/01/2023 13:27

All the pretest ISEB or CEM or consortium school will have NVR, you have to skip those if you want to not do NVR

Show quote history

Yes obviously 🙂

my point is to highlight the trend of NVR slowly but steadily getting ditched … Hampton to date have based their internal assessment for assurance places on NVR as well. However they ditched it from 11+, it’s obvious this will be reflected on their assurance policy too ….that means a lot

HM of a London private school that uses ISEB told us while on school tour, they’re not looking at NVR score anymore, as it’s so over rehearsed it doesn’t make sense

i personally love NVR , makes brain more Mathematical (for me at least) 😝

PreplexJ · 23/01/2023 13:49

@readingcat thanks for sharing your first hand experience

"In terms of workload, I felt the above was quite a lot, and certainly the maximum I could expose DC to without causing excess stress and unhappiness."

As an educator with years of experience yourself, can you please share with some way you would use to find out what would be the excess stress or unhappiness during the process?

As we know the whole thing become more and more intensive, just want to know how should guide the parents to know how much is "too much"

SamPoodle123 · 23/01/2023 13:51

Putney had just English and math. Emanuel was English, math and verbal. So those two you can get away with doing not doing non verbal. But if you dont want to limit yourself, non verbal is important.

Link2022 · 23/01/2023 13:58

readingcat · 23/01/2023 13:29

The relentless competition for London 11+ places and associated industry of preparatory courses, subscription websites, revision materials, tutoring etc. etc. exposes children to the kind of pressure and boredom that can damage natural curiosity and a love of learning. Worse, it risks having a deleterious effect on child mental health, especially for a generation of kids just emerging from the educational disruption and unhappiness of a pandemic, which took a huge toll on them. Unfortunately the industry is driven to a significant degree by us: anxious parents who are desperately trying to do our best for our kids and who sometimes face an uneven playing field. Most of us, I am sure, felt we had little choice other than to buy into Atom, order Bond books etc., driven on perhaps by school-gates (or MN!) chatter about who was doing what. However, I think one has to be reasonable and realistic about what is ultimately in the child’s best interests.

I taught for a long time in the selective London independent sector and was involved with 11+ examining and assessment. My view is that if a child really needs a heavy amount of tutoring to meet the standard of x or y school then it may not be in their interests to be in that environment. Over the years I taught some exceptionally bright students, many good, able kids (most of the cohort), and some who were struggling, unhappy, perhaps still being tutored yet always feeling that they couldn’t cut it. I have no doubt that, had they been in a less selective or fast-paced school, they would have done much better academically, socially and emotionally.

Fwiw, this is what I did with my (privately educated) DC for 2023 entry. Breaks and bribes were included in all study sessions. DC is very good at English and VR, but has struggled with Maths and some aspects of NVR:

1 hour’s Maths tuition pw, term-time only, from January of Y5;
1 hour daily five days a week during 2 (of 3) weeks of the Y5 Easter holidays (key skills and beginning to look at practice papers);
1-2 hours four or five days a week during the Y5-6 summer holidays (3 weeks off whilst abroad or staying with relatives);
A short course (three mornings) on NVR from a local provider during the summer holidays;
2-3 hours Saturdays mornings Y6 September and October (practice papers).
During the autumn term, DC’s school (a prep) set regular Eng/Maths/Reasoning hw and gave them a 40-minute Reasoning lesson a week.

I did not use Atom, but relied on GL practice papers from Amazon, and bought in a few tests from PreTest Plus (more consistent, better designed than Atom, in my view). In terms of workload, I felt the above was quite a lot, and certainly the maximum I could expose DC to without causing excess stress and unhappiness. I think I did the most I could do in order to enable DC to have a decent crack at some good schools without cracking up. I resented doing it, though, as 11+ drilling is so counter to loving learning for its own sake.

For reference, I know parents who did both much more and much less, and kids have differing levels of resilience, of course.

Thank you for sharing, it sounds similar to what I did with my daughter and it was intense, but only for a short period and hopefully doesn’t have any long term implications on her love of learning. If you were doing it again with a sibling how would you do it differently?

eglantine7 · 23/01/2023 14:03

With NVR to a large extent it is a case of you've either got it or you don't. But they should practice to get familiar with questions. Exam familiarity is very important. You do not need a tutor for this , just practice. VR will be high if your child is a good reader so foolish of that childs parents to stop them from reading.

At secondary state they did take an exam for CAT scores when they started in year 7 for my DD but I believe this was because the state schools missed out on SATs due to Covid lockdowns.
As for CAT scores even these can be bumped up with exam familiarity through practice.
An interesting thing about CAT scores my dds went down from 130s to 120s during the 11 plus process between year 4 and 6 and I think due to overloading. It's gone back up again to how it was. I definitely believe confidence helps achieve higher scores and stress can make them drop. So tutoring should be for that rather than to force a child into a setting that they won't struggle with.
I'm not sorry we didn't tutor because they did an awful lot at prep anyway and as it turns out the state school we chose caters to her really well.
Keep an open mind about schools, perhaps the backup school will better or your local state and remember Mental Wellbeing is absolutely important in the long run when picking the school. I do know boys from my primary school, now men, battling depression and addictions after attending Westminster, St Paul's, LU. In the real world being academic is not enough and these schools do give a false sense of security to very clever children after university when entering the world of work and relationships. I have no doubt that the education in " top schools"is excellent and does wonders for some children. But not all children, absolutely not. I sensed this with my own child.
Best of Luck! I feel for everyone doing this. State schools in London have vastly improved and as it goes there will be more and more prejudice towards the privately educated in jobs and university applications. The number of Oxbridge acceptances increases every year. Please do bear this in mind if fees are a huge sacrifice, not to mention the likely 20% extra on fees for VAT which a Labour government will implement 😬😬😬

readingcat · 23/01/2023 14:05

@PreplexJ "As an educator with years of experience yourself, can you please share with some way you would use to find out what would be the excess stress or unhappiness during the process?"

I'm not sure my professional background will help you with this one - as a parent, you are best placed to know when your child is exhibiting signs of stress, unhappiness or burn-out. I will say that I do think that it is very important that DC continue to have 'down time', to enjoy the activities they like best, and to see friends (without discussing the 11+!). So if you do some work with them in the morning, for example, make sure they have something fun to look forward to in the afternoon. I also think it's important that they don't feel that the 11+ is the be-all and end-all (which it really isn't) and that they won't have failed you or themselves if it doesn't work out.

Incidentally, from a schools perspective, overly drilled kids don't always come across as well in interview or group assessments, where personality, enthusiasm and inter-personal skills are also important. When it comes to exam prep, 'little and often' can serve you well.

ViolettasAria · 23/01/2023 14:07

smalldifference · 23/01/2023 11:03

I have been through this three times and can honestly say we never used tutors. To me, it can be counterproductive because no tutor is going to understand the way maths is taught at the school, for instance - or specifically what they have been doing that week. So, if they are teaching things one way and the school another, it just overloads the kids and confuses them. As for things like VR and NVR, the papers can be found on the internet or the Bond papers or whatever, and it's just a case if working through. You don't need to pay someone £50 per hour to watch your child do Bond papers!

Having said this, mine were all in a prep (albeit a non-selective, very mixed ability one). I do recognise that state schools may well offer zero 11 plus exam exposure and so parents feel the need to have something going on outside school. Also mums / dads don't have the time quite often, so throwing money at a tutor can take away some anxiety and make them feel they are at least doing something. Often the tutor is more use as support for the mums, rather than actually helping the kids in any tangible way.

At the prep mine were at they had a Maths paper as homework during the week and they did a book called 'Schofield and Sims' on the weekend. Every week there would be a comprehension task too. VR and NVR was one lesson per week in school. All this started around in the summer term of Year 5. It felt like a lot of work as it was.

I had one go through LU. I can't fault the academic side if things and we are very grateful for that, but my personal take, looking back (and this is only a personal view!) is that socially, it's a tough environment there for many. Retrospectively, DC describes it as "aggressively West London." DC actively avoided unis such as Durham and Edinburgh which have large groups of what they call "West London private school types" who often tend to stay in these groups once at uni. DC was mostly very average at LU, but came into their own in about year 10 and got into Oxbridge where it's more diverse (socially). General impressions are the uni people are more 'normal' and 'less neurotic' as there are all types from all over the U.K.

I have DC at G&L and I don't really know what the difference is, but they have been much happier socially. I would say they have thrived socially, rather than survived socially, if they makes sense. It feels somehow 'kinder' there. But again, purely anecdotal and I'm sure other girls have had different experiences. A lot of it is just luck really.

hi @smalldifference did you have a girl or boy at Latymer? Its our top choice for my son, but he is very gentle so I would be keen to hear if your experience was based on having a gentle son too?

LondonMum20222 · 23/01/2023 14:10

readingcat · 23/01/2023 13:29

The relentless competition for London 11+ places and associated industry of preparatory courses, subscription websites, revision materials, tutoring etc. etc. exposes children to the kind of pressure and boredom that can damage natural curiosity and a love of learning. Worse, it risks having a deleterious effect on child mental health, especially for a generation of kids just emerging from the educational disruption and unhappiness of a pandemic, which took a huge toll on them. Unfortunately the industry is driven to a significant degree by us: anxious parents who are desperately trying to do our best for our kids and who sometimes face an uneven playing field. Most of us, I am sure, felt we had little choice other than to buy into Atom, order Bond books etc., driven on perhaps by school-gates (or MN!) chatter about who was doing what. However, I think one has to be reasonable and realistic about what is ultimately in the child’s best interests.

I taught for a long time in the selective London independent sector and was involved with 11+ examining and assessment. My view is that if a child really needs a heavy amount of tutoring to meet the standard of x or y school then it may not be in their interests to be in that environment. Over the years I taught some exceptionally bright students, many good, able kids (most of the cohort), and some who were struggling, unhappy, perhaps still being tutored yet always feeling that they couldn’t cut it. I have no doubt that, had they been in a less selective or fast-paced school, they would have done much better academically, socially and emotionally.

Fwiw, this is what I did with my (privately educated) DC for 2023 entry. Breaks and bribes were included in all study sessions. DC is very good at English and VR, but has struggled with Maths and some aspects of NVR:

1 hour’s Maths tuition pw, term-time only, from January of Y5;
1 hour daily five days a week during 2 (of 3) weeks of the Y5 Easter holidays (key skills and beginning to look at practice papers);
1-2 hours four or five days a week during the Y5-6 summer holidays (3 weeks off whilst abroad or staying with relatives);
A short course (three mornings) on NVR from a local provider during the summer holidays;
2-3 hours Saturdays mornings Y6 September and October (practice papers).
During the autumn term, DC’s school (a prep) set regular Eng/Maths/Reasoning hw and gave them a 40-minute Reasoning lesson a week.

I did not use Atom, but relied on GL practice papers from Amazon, and bought in a few tests from PreTest Plus (more consistent, better designed than Atom, in my view). In terms of workload, I felt the above was quite a lot, and certainly the maximum I could expose DC to without causing excess stress and unhappiness. I think I did the most I could do in order to enable DC to have a decent crack at some good schools without cracking up. I resented doing it, though, as 11+ drilling is so counter to loving learning for its own sake.

For reference, I know parents who did both much more and much less, and kids have differing levels of resilience, of course.

Thank-you so much for sharing your perspectives and experience @readingcat - I found it really helpful. What you describe sounds much more like the kind of prep I've heard first-hand from other parents at my DD's prep and beyond. Steady and methodical in Y5, ramping up over the summer holidays. Other people I know have got great results taking exactly this approach.

Do you mind me asking whether your DC got offers they wanted from the schools they/you were keen on? And whether you know feel they're at a school that's a good academic fit for them?

knopka · 23/01/2023 14:12

@MomFromSE
Thanks for recommendation, I have looked on the website but admissions part says we are too late for registration and assessments.

I have 2 in need of schooling, they will be Y6 and Y7 next year. Do you reckon its still worth trying?
My 5 year old can go locally, we found a nice local school that has a bilingual stream for her.
I worry they won't be good enough for the likes of Dulwich, is CAT4 scores of 131 and 133 enough or is it more 135 plus?

The issue is my boys didn't really like prep at all, they enjoy minecraft and other video games perhaps too much and have really not taken to 2 months of preparation kindly as they have never done any sort of tutoring before. Maybe I have been too slack with them but it's sort of too late. I think it's also harder doing it all remotely.
I want them to be stretched as they were really bored at a state school but at the same time I don't want them to be at the bottom of the cohort.

PreplexJ · 23/01/2023 14:14

It is okey, 1-2 hours per week heresay become 1-2 hours daily now. I wish I can create time in MN.

Just interest in Prep school parents when does the summer term start? How many parents in prep actually sit grammars (which stars in early September?)

readingcat · 23/01/2023 14:16

@Link2022 "If you were doing it again with a sibling how would you do it differently?"

I think I would start earlier and do smaller chunks of prep as well as integrating 11+-specific skills into general homework support. The Y5-6 prep I did in 2022 did feel intense, and we had the added complication of Maths skills, never amazing, having taken a big hit from lockdown-impacted learning, which I hadn't fully appreciated until relatively late in the day.

I think I would start 'dropping in' VR and NVR skills disguised as fun puzzles and games in Y4 and then build up to more formal prep on a 'little and often' basis from the beginning of Y5. If you attack it too early (or anxiously) you risk shooting yourself in the foot, I think. I would also pay more attention to developing Maths & English skills through scaffolding homework more actively throughout primary.

Caveat that it all depends on the child, of course!

readingcat · 23/01/2023 14:22

@LondonMum20222 We applied to five independent schools and have heard from two so far (the rest in Feb). DC didn't make it to round 2 of a very selective school, but was offered a place and has been shortlisted for an academic scholarship at another school. Of the remaining three schools (one super selective, one pretty selective, one less so), only one had two rounds, and we made it through. Fingers crossed.

woohooho · 23/01/2023 14:24

@ViolettasAria - I have a DS currently at LU. Theres a wide variety of kids, I'd say far more than at more 'Alpha' type boys schools in particular.
I'd heard all the talk about it being full of ruthlessly cool West London children but it really doesn't seem like that to me- maybe its changed a bit recent years? Compared to friend's experiences at the 2 girl's schools in Hammersmith it seems to be a lot more relaxed socially wise!

LondonMum20222 · 23/01/2023 14:39

@readingcat Ah, apologies, I thought your DC started in Sept. My mistake! Wishing your DC (and you) all the best on Feb 10th!

Justarrivedlondon · 23/01/2023 14:47

For those preparing their DC for future 11+, I think you should really be careful in interpreting the relatively low level of preparation needed as argued by some mums here, which jokingly seems to include one who has yet to start the process.

Also, it may be outdated if it was some years ago and the mums might just have said these in good faith.

Wilson's has the ethnic data on its Year 7 entry, and the percentage of white boys has decreased from about 20% to a few % in just a few years. Highgate, one of the least diverse schools in London, when we went for the interview, almost half are BAME, a very different mix from what I saw on the exam date and in school tour.

Feeling a bit guilty as we are part of the BAME, and feeling sad and caught a bit off guard that after leaving our country and coming here a year ago, we need to engage in a similar game in London, the extent of preparation just seems not quite the same as 5, 10, or 20 years ago.

readingcat · 23/01/2023 14:57

@Justarrivedlondon "For those preparing their DC for future 11+, I think you should really be careful in interpreting the relatively low level of preparation needed as argued by some mums here, which jokingly seems to include one who has yet to start the process."

For clarity: unless I've missed something, those who have shared their prep schedules and views on them are all either applying for places currently or have done so in very recent years. I don't think anyone has yet to start the process.

Justarrivedlondon · 23/01/2023 14:59

readingcat · 23/01/2023 14:57

@Justarrivedlondon "For those preparing their DC for future 11+, I think you should really be careful in interpreting the relatively low level of preparation needed as argued by some mums here, which jokingly seems to include one who has yet to start the process."

For clarity: unless I've missed something, those who have shared their prep schedules and views on them are all either applying for places currently or have done so in very recent years. I don't think anyone has yet to start the process.

Are you sure? Go back to the beginning of these threads.

Jibberty · 23/01/2023 15:01

Has there really been someone posting who has yet to even start an 11+ process? Really?

readingcat · 23/01/2023 15:02

@Justarrivedlondon I'm back at work now and don't have time to rummage through the (very long) threads, I'm afraid, so I will have to take your word for it!

PreplexJ · 23/01/2023 15:09

Jibberty · 23/01/2023 15:01

Has there really been someone posting who has yet to even start an 11+ process? Really?

Well I know some active mums are definitely not sitting for 2023 year entry. But apparently they are prepping in this thread already..

PreplexJ · 23/01/2023 15:27

@LoveMyADHD " personally love NVR , makes brain more Mathematical"

I think time pressure NR/NVR favours kids with quick cognitive recognition abilities, but might not good to find out kids that has good logical mindsets with structural deductive reasoning skills (maths or science) . Human brains just work differently for kids. There is no one universal way to find out the bright / intelligents.

MomFromSE · 23/01/2023 15:27

@knopka I would definitely still contact Dulwich prep London. Again this isn’t Dulwich College. It’s this school: www.dulwichpreplondon.org

The year 7 intake will absolutely have space - year 6 might be trickier but worth a call. You could also potentially call Rosemead in West Dulwich for the Year 6 student if Dulwich prep can’t accommodate your middle child.

Those CAT scores indicate your children are in the top 1-2 percent of the ability range. Despite the madness spouted on Mumsnet, that kind of indicative raw ability is more than enough to get into any private school in the country. Of course they still need to actually pass the entrance exams which test knowledge and skills rather than raw ability.

I’m sure you’ll get the offers you are after though. You have some very clever boys!

MomFromSE · 23/01/2023 15:42

@knopka also don’t worry about them pushing back on prep. I think kids who are assertive are natural leaders and those kinds of traits set you up for long-term success in life when you are actually in the real world of work!

Themagicchair · 23/01/2023 16:05

@ViolettasAria I have two dc at LU coming to the end of the process. Every single year at this time the threads start about which school is "better", with the same myths - SPGS is too pushy, G&L is too posh, LU is too street and so on and on. FWIW, both my dc are not street in the slightest, they're really very nerdy and have a nerdy, sweet group of friends. There are "cooler" kids but the reality is all the "cool" kids from the other W London schools tend to form one big cohort and go around together (one of my mum friends from school is always telling me about what her ds is getting up to in Mayfair mansions with kids from the Harrodian), while the shyer, more gentle ones do their thing in a more low-key way and seem very happy. Both dc love the school, I've had my mild annoyances with it over the years but I'm fairly sure they're annoyances I'd have had elsewhere and never regretted the choice. Others, of course, will have had different experiences.