Child working at "expected" ; anyone's DC working at expected pass the 11plus?

[TheRubyRedshoes]

Just wondering if it's a huge gap to bridge?
She was struggling at school but is now coming on at pace. Her sister was working at greater depth however expected at maths and passed with minimal support bar some mock Tests from me

Her sister is working at expected and would get more help...or have peoples DC failed even with help?
Thank you

Chupney yes this is a consideration but we are sort of dammed if we do and dammed if we don't.

I can understand why you're a bit bitter about the FSM extra points but I don't really think you're quite grasping what that label entails. It's extremely difficult to be on FSM now. The income threshold is very very low. I am by no means saying FSM kids don't have caring parents, far from it, but it's unlikely the average FSM child has a parent who will be able to do all that you're doing with your daughter. They are often either working very unsocial hours or have all sorts of other effects of poverty to deal with.
Also, your comment about SEN is a bit weird too. No one is saying SEN means not academic. But the reality is, most grammars don't have a good SEN provision. A lot of the time SEN kids aren't able to put their knowledge and intelligence down on paper as easily too.
Your daughter sounds like she may well pass and that your local grammar is likely going to be a good fit for her if it's as you describe. What you describe is definitely not the norm for grammars though. I would definitely give her a chance, especially if her sister is there and you gave her that opportunity. If she turns out to be more fiercely academic in a couple of years, she may be bitter that you assumed she'd fail.

Never mind, I'm not bitter at all.

It's a good strategy to help levels out the playing field it's just we need " more "of it.

I know very well re fsm and again it's not black and white situation by any means.

Unfortunately Sen especially within teaching is labelled as less clever and less accademic and it's why I'm extremely worried that she will be crushed at our local comp.

Anyway there are one or two positive story's here.

Ill just have to see how she responds to the tutoring and extra work load.

What’s your local comp like? Have you actually been to see it, spoken to the SEN staff and got a feel for how happy the kids are? Or are you just writing it off as grammar = good and comp = bad? I went to a grammar when frankly I wasn’t up to it. I won’t say it was scarring or anything because that would be over the top, but in retrospect I would’ve been much happier at a ‘normal’ school. Or at least one where the other kids were less competitive. I found the learning style rushed as the other girls picked things up very quickly, the teachers fixated on the Oxbridge contenders and the rest of us were left behind.

@TheRubyRedshoes I agree with you completely that it's not black and white, there's lots of things that can change in a child's life when they're receiving the protected years of FSM.
I'm not saying it's perfect and I'm not saying you're wrong. It really does sound like in your area, with the grammar you have, you should try and put her through. How much work is she doing? My DD is very dyslexic and has super slow processing, kindle has really helped as she can play the audio book and the words light up as the audio book reads them.

Assuming you are in Bucks given you mentioned the 121.

As a general rule, the “top” 25% of Bucks children will pass the test. Arguably this includes a number of children who have been so heavily tutored they manage to artificially elevate themselves (but then struggle once they’re there), but on the whole the brightest children are the ones who pass.

You must have a vague idea of where your daughter sits in her cohort. It sounds like she’s way off the top of the class, but where does your gut tell you she sits? Higher end of average then you have nothing to lose in trying. Slap bang in the middle or below and it might be a step too far.

Without an EHCP or medical diagnosis then there will be no adjustments made for her in the testing process. Her current school will have to submit “suitability for grammar” scores prior to the tests. These are used in cases of selection review. Look at the relevant section of the council website for the detail.

www.buckinghamshire.gov.uk/schools-and-learning/schools-index/school-admissions/school-admissions-guides-policies-and-statistics/guide-to-grammar-schools-and-the-secondary-school-transfer-test-11-plus/selection-review/

I would recommend a meeting with her current school to go through how they would most likely categorise her based on her current academic performance.

Please be realistic. SEN or no SEN would your DD actually thrive in a grammar environment? Not just be ok, but thrive. It’s so hard when you already have one at grammar to not want the same for your other child. This can put an awful lot more pressure on the second child though and make the fall if they don’t pass much larger.

Sorry, I waffle. I don’t think it’s as clear as just using “expected” as a guide. Is she really working at the top end of her cohort, can she cope with the fast pace of learning at a grammar, and how would she feel if she was always towards the bottom of the class in an academic school?

I second that it’s a good idea to speak to her current school as to whether they think she’d cope. Our school was very helpful with DS when we were trying to work out whether to appeal. They can give you a good indication of where they think your child is at and what school will suit them. I became so focused on getting DS in to the grammar on appeal that I lost sight of what was best for him. And what kind of child he is.

We’re in Bucks. Places are very competitive with children out of county applying for places. It wasn’t the top 25% in our (very good) primary only a few passed - 10 out of 90. Now it depends on the cohort and the school but they definitely need to be very clearly working at the top of their primary class. You also have all the local private schools actually teaching the 11+ so that increases competition.

But it does vary year on year. The year before a good 30% passed at our school.

Oh and the SEN provision at our local comp is fantastic. Grammar none existent.

@BookwormButNoTime

Very interesting thanks. My gut tells me she has lots of potential and she's a hard worker I expect her profile would be spiky but she constantly surprises me!

She rattled through the NVR without hardly any support and she had never seen it before and she was reasonably good at the verbal reasoning as well. I would say in fact considering she doesn't read for pleasure and didn't do all those children activity books eg Osbourne trip books which are precursors to this ...she did incredibly well.
She has a very fast brain and she likes pace. Where she struggles is short term memory and processing, repetition.
I looked at the heads criteria's and I suspect it would be suitable with reservation and hardworking and reliable.
However our school does not and will not support the 11 plus in anyway and has been openly vocal about deriding parents for it.
They have no understanding of it either.

@Cuppasoupmonster

I have lots of expensive of the other potential school yes, especially from Sen pov.

@Delatron not the case in my two choices it's the reverse.

Our school doesn't understand or support the 11plus and they wouldn't understand what it entails to be a student at one.

Unfortunately I don't want to say more because it's all very outing now .

It's an annymous forums but people always seem rather too keen in pinning down areas and posters 🤣 which then means one can't post more freely.

@TheRubyRedshoes As you will already know, the VR element is 50% of the test. My DD was much stronger in the NVR and maths sections but they are only 25% each.

If she is consistently getting 80% plus in VR then she’ll probably be fine. 70% at this time (once familiar with the question types) and she should be able to make up the difference by September. Working around 50% and the gap is probably too large.

We didn’t formally tutor for the 11+. We did books at home from about now and took a light touch as I believe that if she’d needed huge amounts of tutoring to get in then it wasn’t the right place for her. We were the only parents at her school (prep) not formally tutoring and the head told us we were very brave. He also said that the most a child usually makes up with tutoring is 10%. Have no idea where he got his stats from. The huge benefit we had was the school was supportive and gave guidance, although did not offer any specific tuition as they were a partner school.

They were very honest with parents about their child’s suitability for grammar. Some chose to ignore that and those were the ones who failed.

We worked on exam technique mainly. Speed, accuracy, time keeping and missing out questions and going back to them. She passed with flying colours.

@BookwormButNoTime again thanks it's all useful reminders.

I was the same with DC 1 and she had minimal help, I got her all the books and we barely did any of them. I remember resorting to u tube for cube nets!

It's all been very sudden with dc2 because I wasn't sure whether to put her through it.
With the level of support they get from 11 plus school, if a child can't pass with that additional support then I agree it's definitely not for them , issues on the day excluded.
I reckon she needs a good few lessons and then see where we are.
But considering she doesnt read and hasn't done those activity books she has done very well.

Her brain is very interesting 🤣 she learns games very quickly and as she is learning it she works out simultaneously how to hack it to win.

Re tutoring adding 10 I would agree if that's possibly coming from a steady baseline from a child who works consistently. For dd1 I can see that would make sense..

The issue with DD 2 is that she's been latent due to our countries teaching strategies for so long,now she's racing along.

Just curious, is the level for exceeding, expected etc the same for state and private? My dc are at exceeding and greater depths, but at a state primary. I am wondering if this means they are working at expected level when compared to private? I am nervously waiting 11+ now for my first dc and starting to prepare my second one now. We are so removed from all this 11+ prep, as no one in the school does it.

This 100%

My son passed after being at expected for Year 5. However he had a year of 11 plus tutoring and we read 4-5 days a night. By the time the 11 plus came around he was at exceeding for maths and a high age for reading and had come on a lot with his English so was just short of exceeding.

His tutor said he would fail on his English and that was his highest mark.

Don't forget depending on where to are, they do verbal reasoning and/or non verbal and that is what threw a lot of untutored children.

”Expected” means “average”. Most people are average, that’s literally what it means. If she’s average, that isn’t bad.

If you think she is well above averagely clever and would thrive in a grammar, then get her a tutor or buy the Schofield & Simms books and teacher yourself.

If you think she has an average intellect then please don’t put her in a grammar, even if she passes the 11+ she will fall apart under the pressure and fast pace. My friend went to a grammar where she was always near the bottom of class and it destroyed her confidence, she didn’t even go to uni.

Remember the whole purpose of the 11+ test is to identify the children who will be able to cope with grammar school.

My biggest concern for your daughter is the potential dyslexia/ eye issue. Most children with these problems have been diagnosed well before age 11. I’m not sure what stage you’re at with diagnosis but I’d focus on diagnosing her and finding a nuturing supportive secondary.

@TheRubyRedshoes This is why the grammar system stinks. It’s a test on one single day. It doesn’t take into account SEN issues that have no impact on intelligence. Those families with money can endlessly tutor children who perhaps otherwise wouldn’t have got in and take up places from very intelligent children who fail just because they aren’t familiar with the question types. It doesn’t take into account children developing at different paces.

A child with a spiky profile who is only just coming into their own at this age could well be very suited to grammar - it’s just the entrance test timing isn’t matched with where they are.

In answer to your question, yes my child was expected at some subjects (incl maths) at the end of yr 4 but by end yr 6 was greater depth in most.

Yr 5 was a write off report wise as covid got in the way.

He passed a competitive 11+ exam and is doing very well in yr 8 now. He is and was a big reader though. Way above his age in reading. I think that was a massive help. Having said that his good friend wasn't a big reader and also passed. He was also tutored and wanted to go to grammar.

I suppose it depends if she will be crushed if she does not pass or just shrug it off.

What form does the 11+ take on your area.Here it is Verbal and non verbal reasoning which h of course completely different to school curriculum.It often throws up surprises....

@Raindancer411

Thanks can I ask what you mean by we read? Did you read to him.

How is he coping now?

Book worm

I totally agree but I have wider issues with school in general.

The grammar probably won't quite suit D's 2 as things stand right now.

But the comprehensive definitely won't suit her as things stand right now. But more aspects of the grammar would suit her.

What would definitely suit her is smaller classes and accountability from the school with excellent parent teacher relations.ie private. And we cant afford that.

The grammar were left in limbo after the attempt to remove them and what that did was essentially remove the ladder for fsm me students and those with uninterested parents.

The Sutton trust addresses this and more outreach work should be going on to plug the gap between students with no home support And these with support..

Bookworm also I know students who were tutored for 2 years and didn't pass.
I don't think you can tutor in what's not there .

Private schools can report whatever they like and have whatever expectations they like as they may not follow the national curriculum (but most do). I work in a prep and we report compared to national age related expectations. The difference is, the majority of pupils are working ahead of age related. So a child who is working at national average levels in my class is near the bottom of the class. The ‘average’ child in my class is working ahead of expected levels.

@SamPoodle123

I think it depends on the school, was there an exam to get in .
In my limited experience they are working to a higher standard and push them more.