Child working at "expected" ; anyone's DC working at expected pass the 11plus?

[TheRubyRedshoes]

Just wondering if it's a huge gap to bridge?
She was struggling at school but is now coming on at pace. Her sister was working at greater depth however expected at maths and passed with minimal support bar some mock Tests from me

Her sister is working at expected and would get more help...or have peoples DC failed even with help?
Thank you

The plus points are : boost for sats which do matter. No harm in a few months extra learning and will give her an all around boost in exam technique etc..

If she does fail we will of course play it down but she's very competitive with her sister. Unfortunately either way we would be in a tricky place ,if we didn't let her try it and if we do and she fails.
I guess at least this way if she's older and blames us we can say, we tried as much as we can to support her to pass.

DS didn’t so his SATs as he was in year 6 in 2020 but his teacher assessed him as greater depth for maths and reading and expected for writing. He passed his 11+ in. 2019 with no tutoring just practice and he’s doing really well at his grammar school. He now gets 8s in written assignments pretty consistently but he is being assessed for dyslexia at some point this term.

If she’s working at the lower end of expected though, it might be more difficult to get her through. Maybe you could with lots of tutoring but would it really be the best place for her? DS’s grammar school don’t do any setting until year 10 and the whole class are expected to keep up with the same work.

SATs don't matter for the students at all. They are a measure of the school. Schools drum it into patents that they are important so they buy into the build up.

Secondary schools don't work exclusively on SAT levels when setting, as a lot can change at secondary and they don't know how much a child has been drilled.

The other thing secondary schools use SATs for is progress checking and reporting. None of which is for the individual student.

Sats are important and can be used for lots of things..

Sats are also referred to when looking at progress 8 because lots of students excelled at primary but fell flat in secondary so progress 8 is a way of charting their progress.
Sats can also be used of a child fails 11 plus and used as evidence for 12 plus etc of ability.

If she had started reception say and plodded along at expected then I wouldn't be too hopeful, it's the way she has picked up pace that I'm hopeful about.

I have to say one of the key things that I think was pivotal was DS badly wanted to get into grammar school despite the odds being stacked against him. Good luck OP. It’s a shit system we’re stuck with!

My DS had a number of health issues and was very far behind. My older DC was already having tuition for 11plus prep. He happened to be an educational assessor too so he started supporting my DS to catch up. It was still very hit and miss as he had some issues with his writing but he did manage to get offered two schools via the entrance exams. He is now 15 and has been recently assessed and definitely has processing issues, he is being given extra time in his exams and touch typing, They want his to have a full dyslexia assessment.

Also bear in mind @TheRubyRedshoes that the 11+ exam is not curriculum-based so while the 'working at' levels are a useful general guide they do not translate directly into 11+ scores. You might find that your DD2 aces the 11+ because the style of exam suits her (or the opposite I suppose). I wouldn't let her 'working at' levels put you off in the slightest, particularly when you say she has improved considerably just recently.

Just one point to correct you on, though. Scores don't 'change' in the way you seem to think depending on birthdate. What the system does is compare all members of the cohort taking the exam by birth month ie if your daughter was born in, say, October her score will be compared to others born in October. Those born in May will be compared to others born in May. Parents with DCs born early in the academic year often complain that the system is weighted against them, but it is not, this is a misunderstanding of how it really works.

I’m not sure if it is just your wording I’m not understanding, but children’s scores are definitely ‘changed’ based on age. Everyone gets a raw score (literally how many they got right), this is then run through an algorithm based on their age in years and months to give a standardised score. A child who scores, say 35/50 and is born in September will get a different standardised score to a child who scores 35/50 and is born in august. September born children have to score more marks to get the same standardised score as august children. Explained here:

support.gl-assessment.co.uk/knowledge-base/guides/a-guide-to-standardised-tests/a-guide-to-standardised-tests/how-are-standardised-test-results-described/

@modgepodge

Wow and my dd on Sen register won't get anything and fsm does. Inof course wouldn't stop that for fsm but my dd is on Sen register?

@TheRubyRedshoes because fsm kids are disadvantaged with their home lives which massively impact attainment. Sen kids can have extra time and support to even out the playing field. Nothing is perfect but this isn't something to be mad about.

@Nevermindthesquirrels ...

Absolutely it's pretty obvious how fsm can be disadvantage but also remember it's not black and white.

Sen means there is something prohibiting learning.

But unfortunately a child scoring lower won't be allowed in.

I can't see the difference?

Ask around if there is an 11+ tutor who will do a pre-assessment, they should tell you whether they think your child is capable of passing etc and take it from there.

Which area?

If it's somewhere with super competitive grammar like S Warks or Birmingham where it's a tiny % who get in then I'd say no, but Kent might be easier?

I think someone who is not a reader would not pass. Sorry. If it was just about being of average ability then parents would not be tutoring their kids.

Why are you even considering a grammar school when she is SEN and sounds like she simply isn’t academic enough to go? Sorry if that sounds harsh but grammars aren’t places for average-but-tutored-to-high-heaven kids. And their SEN provision is shocking because they’re simply not used to SEN, for obvious reasons. I think you’re letting your own ego trump what’s best for her tbh.

No disrespect intended but grammar schools aren’t intended for most SEN kids. They are set up for the ones who are achieving highly in academics at age 10/11. (Of course, some SEN kids do achieve highly academically in which case they’ll likely pass the 11+.) However most SEN kids are on the SEN register because they struggle academically. Grammar school is not the place for them. There will be little to no support even if they do somehow pass the exam. Comprehensive schools will be much better set up to support children with an SEN in my experience.

FSM kids are unlikely to have had tutoring like many middle class children, and may (MAY!!) not have had access to as much support at home, enriching experiences and so on. The idea of letting those children in with a slightly lower score than their ‘richer’ peers is to negate this disadvantage. Assuming they are bright enough they will do well at grammar school. It’s a blunt tool of course.

The grammar her dc is at has very good sen provison.

It's sad that people still think having Sen means they are not accademic.

@modgepodge

Ironically it's not only the appalling lack of provision for Sen DC at our local comp but also the awful way the DC have been treated that concerns me .

I did specifically say some SEN kids are academic and will pass the 11+. But the majority aren’t. I actually teach 3 SEN children with ADHD/autism diagnosis and they have/will probably pass the 11+ - with no allowances made. I teach a fair few more who wouldn’t have passed no matter how much tutoring was given, and lowering the pass mark for them would have don’t them no favours whatsoever because they just wouldn’t cope in a grammar school. They struggle to keep up in my mixed ability, non- selective class.

I don't understand the comparison.

10 marks is still beyond the reach of many fsm / Sen DC.
.in my dd case inspite of facing barriers which she's overcoming, she won't be allowed that 10 point advantage.

I’m not sure what to say 🤷‍♀️ I didn’t make the rules but in my opinion they make sense to some degree.

Grammar schools take the most academically able and push them. That’s their focus. If a child is needing support/intervention to achieve ‘expected’ levels in mid primary school, they probably won’t cope in grammar school. Many SEN children fall in to this category, and lowering the pass mark so they could get in would not help them in the long run.

But she isn’t academic SEN or otherwise, she is not grammar quality in her work.

@Cuppasoupmonster

I think the obvious answer to my musings is that my dd is "up against it" should we get her to 11 plus stage.

That's pretty obvious, she's starting from behind for sure.
If she wasn't, coupled with... seemingly catching up really fast, I wouldn't have bothered to ask this question.

My question was specifically, has anyone DC been working at "expected" and still passed the 11 plus.

It wasn't, "should I put my DC forward for the test". However I don't mind more random answers because one sometimes learns something new.

I don't want to go into more detail that would be extremely outing but she's not been working at expecting her entire school caere and she's verbally very bright and fast as DC who present with dyslexia can be.

The biggest issue against us is that she isn't in any way a prolific reader.
I know very well how this really disadvantages her.

But we could plug that gap with other means.

There are many considerations we face but not all grammar schools are evil accademic factories where DC are left bullied, pushed and stressed.

Ironically it's actually the comp that is like this.

But what I'm interested in is other people's journey that hasn't been straight forward.

That's all.

They need to be prolific readers. I think this is where my DS fell down. He was exceeding in maths and is bright but I don’t think he read enough.

The few that passed (and not many from our school did that year) were not as strong at maths but they were big readers.

Now you've mentioned she's a younger sibling I would definitely say give her the chance.

I know where a younger sibling was labelled as less able so not put in for the same test. Still has a huge chip on their shoulder about it and a poor relationship with parents. Is now oversuccessful to make up for it. But desperately unhappy.

So give her the chance and your full support. The rest is up to her.