Compulsory maths for all students in England till they're 18

[noblegiraffe]

Says the front page of the Telegraph. Sunak's new big plan.

It's not going to happen, they know it won't happen, and they were told it couldn't happen in 2017 when they read Prof Smith's review into post-16 maths education that they commissioned.

We haven't got enough maths teachers, this is just bullshit posturing. Fret ye not.

It's like our definition of poverty being linked to average incomes - because of distribution curve, there'll always be poverty, even if everyone's wages are doubled or trebled because some people will always earn a percentage less than others!

Well, to be fair, that's a standard definition of relative poverty...

@Piggywaspushed

Arguably, if you had done al that at 17, you would have forgotten it! I have certainly forgotten everything I did at sixth form in terms of the two languages I learnt, for example, and if I oved to Germany, I'd need to learn it all again.

I think that applies to everything you study, at whatever age. I've forgotten everything I "studied" in my 4 years of Chartered accountancy training. It's 35 years ago. What I know today and what I use in my day job is a culmination of 35 years of practical experience rather than formally learned knowledge. At best, studying things formally at the start of my career give me the skillset to do the work to the required standard in those early yers, but mostly by telling me things to research, i.e. the old adage of "you don't know what you don't know" - because of the studying/exams, there were things I knew that I needed to check out - I couldn't remember the detail, but I'd know there was "something" which I could research to get the detail of. Eg I took an exam in Capital Transfer Tax, but that's since been scrapped and replaced by Inheritance Tax - I've never studied nor taken an exam in Inheritance Tax yet it's an important part of my job whereas I've never done any Capital Transfer tax advice or returns (it was actually scrapped before I took the exam, but there was no time for the Accountancy body to change the exam so we were examined on something that no longer existed!

I got good grades at O level and A level Maths. When my DS started them at school, I was pretty sure I'd be able to help him if required. Fell at the first hurdle with trigonometry. I could remember SOHCAHTOA, (sine over hypoteneuse etc), but couldn't remember exactly how to use Sine - but a quick google and I learned quickly. That's what I mean by "you don't know what you don't know". Because I'd studied it, I knew that there was an equation and process and when I saw it, I remembered.

I don't think anyone would genuinely/usefully remember much of their school qualifications unless they use the content regularly in adult life. That's not the point really. It's like History, knowing the exact dates of the Wars of the Roses isn't helpful and not necessary to remember (a quick google will tell you), but if you've a general idea it was between 1066/James/Magna Carta and Henry Eighth, that's as much as you need to know about the dates, i.e. the order in which things happened! What's more important is the skills you gain when learning history, such as cause & consequence, evaluation of evidence, bias, etc - it's not so much about learning the facts (as you can google them), it's learning the transferrable skills.

I agree, but I don't think that is what Sunak is saying. He seems to think if they do maths til 18 they will miraculously all be 'good at maths' and be able to / want to work in the STEM industries. To be honest, I'm only guessing as the whole thing is so muddled and unclear.

I actually think proper maths (rather than arithmetic) is the most easily forgotten thing - because it is entirely skills and technique based- of everything we do at school.

the whole thing is so muddled and unclear

That’s the point of it. It’s muddled, unclear and meaningless, but was meant to sound good and act as a distraction from all the other nonsense by getting everyone arguing about it.
Unfortunately for Sunak it seems to be backfiring somewhat by annoying people as they recall their own struggles with Maths at school.

Dead cats everywhere born!

I actually think proper maths (rather than arithmetic) is the most easily forgotten thing - because it is entirely skills and technique based- of everything we do at school.

Yes, I've found it to be 'use it or lose it' - at 62 there are some aspects of my a levels and degree maths I still use regularly, other parts which have receded to being familiar names that I can't actually do any more.
There are some aspects where faded knowledge suffices. If you're writing code and you know you need to apply a particular method then using a function someone else wrote (including your younger self) may get the job done.

They seem to go so fast through maths in UK primary schools too. During lockdown I was using the bbc site that was providing lockdown education to children at home for my daughter while we were waiting for her Finnish school to sort out lockdown learning and I had to go back several year levels from the UK system to be at DD's level because they go so much slower through maths in primary school in Finland, spending lots of time repeating what they learnt the previous term or year to make sure everyone understands the basics (and when they don't they intervene straight away, not letting them go onto the next topic not understanding, DD had lessons with the special ed teacher because she didn't grasp time telling by the time the rest of the class did). Doing an exam at the end of each topic means the teacher knows if everyone grasps the topic or not. The flipside is it might be frustrating for those that grasp the topic quickly, although the books have extra optional questions for those that finish before the others but that won't be enough for some children.

My DCs never had different sets in any subject from kindergarten all the way to 8th grade, though they went to a RC primary and things are different in public middle schools here (6th, 7th and 8th grades).

All through elementary and middle school grades the entire class did the same work. Some had to work harder then others. Some were a bit bored sometimes.

Ultimately I can't think of anything more soul destroying than being placed in an obvious set in primary school, whether top, middle or lowest. Setting tells kids they are stupid or bright or mediocre - it's not a good thing to give kids labels like that at an impressionable age. Messages children absorb about themselves can be very limiting.

My DCs and their classmates sallied forth to high schools, both public and RC, ready to find out who they were and explore their interests. Lots of kids really blossomed in art, maths, writing, music, etc.

Agree. I can see how sets have their place in upper school but not in primary school, their abilities change so rapidly when young and they should all get the message that they are capable.

@mathanxiety .. Even as an adult I'm way behind DD in maths.

I hold her back and wouldn't dare to support her and confuse her. I can't imagine her being shackled ro me in a class missing all the basics and needing endless repetition.
How could any teacher meet both of our needs?
How could I sit there whilst every single top set student answers every single question,I can't get??

I've never heard of such a dreadul idea.

All DC are capable,some need a different way of it being explained. ..

And need a different pace.

All I can say is that it worked really well in my DCs' school.

They understood math at a level I did not at the time I was in school. They were taught every topic in depth. There were times I felt they were going really, really slowly through the material but there was method to the madness. Their elementary school produced students who were comfortable with their peers in their classrooms and in their interactions with their teachers.

The idea that an elite should be created in math, and pushed forward, while the rest are allowed to lag behind and then drop out is not one that is accepted in American schools. Math is considered to be something anyone can understand and demonstrate competence at if they work hard at it. It's a more democratic approach, and because math is one of the core intellectual endeavours American students are expected to gain competence in and not just drop, teachers take the competence of every student seriously.

This is also why high schools offer so many math tracks. Not every student has the interest or the need to do calculus but there is plenty of material aside from that to use to develop the ability to learn and practice the virtues American education values, like self advocacy, consistent effort, and prompt attention to problems.

The GPA system means students need to work consistently every day in high school, and not just rely on exams as evidence of competence. The GPA is a measure of attainment that illustrates how well a student has learned to learn, and how much resilience amd perseverance a student has, as well as a student's level of subject mastery. It takes a good deal of maturity to hand in accurate homework every day, study for weekly tests, and contribute in class every day for the four years of high school. Students have to ask for help if there's something they don't understand, and make sure they monitor their own learning in order to keep daily grades up.

The goal of learning to learn, and associated skills like communication, self advocacy, and building of personal confidence are emphasised in American elementary schools, not the narrower goal of mastering a certain body of knowledge. A child in primary school could be very quick to understand a topic in math but might not have the resilience or the confidence to attack more complex math at secondary level, or ask for help if floundering, or might feel a failure if help was needed in a system that values mastery above all and separates kids into groups according to perceived ability at a very young age.

I want to make it clear that my DCs were not all academic high flyers in all subjects.

One DC in particular struggled in math, to the point where I wondered about dyscalculia. The high school placement test yielded a really low score and the DC was placed in a summer program in the high school that was designed to identify weak areas in comprehension and build skills, as well as providing a group of peers who were all in the same boat, team building activities, and build the foundations of relationships with the teaching staff.

This DC did block scheduling for math in freshman year, with the first period of a double class period for instruction and questions, and the second half for students to work on problems individually and in groups under supervision of the teacher. It was a class of about 17 students. The DC was able to do a regular math class the following two years and then took a summer school class to bridge to a college prep level for senior year.

If this DC had been allowed to absorb a message that they lacked an innate ability that others had while still forming a sense of identity, they might not have been confident or optimistic enough by high school to make an effort, ask questions when baffled, or feel empowered enough to take the lead in small group work, which the DC's teacher noted in freshman year.

Thank you for that detailed description of your DC’s experience, @mathanxiety. I’ve been struck in the past by the very differing attitudes to Maths in the USA vs the UK and it goes a long way to explaining it.

I think it was best for my master's programme that I did the immediately applicable units (stats etc) right before taking up the course, but I do think I would have done better with a stronger foundation, rather than having to learn from scratch. When I go over homework with my children, I often find that I don't remember something cold, but when I reread it, it comes back. I did French for GCSE and I can barely string a sentence together now--but it made learning Spanish much easier as an adult! So it's not as simple, I think.

My children (I have 3) are/were tracked in maths and English from 6th grade (Year 7). In elementary there was extra attention given to the students at the very top and bottom of the curve, but no sets. I think there are flaws in maths teaching here, and there's a constant argument over expectations past Geometry which is frankly tedious, and some children do get the expectation that they are not "math people". But I do feel like there's more of a push to be an all-rounder and not to cut off your options and I do very much like that. I think my oldest who is now taking Calculus and doing very well could easily have been slotted into "But you prefer humanities" in the English system. I also think the continuous assessment is preferable rather than so much hinging on exams at the end, and I don't like the removal of coursework from most GCSEs and A-Levels.

I also live in an area with a lot of middle-class immigrants who really push their children and they tend to see maths as crucial. Interestingly there's some research that the emphasis on hard work vs. innate skill is really crucial, especially in maths. Eventually the brightest child will hit a wall and if they believe it's down to innate ability, they conclude they're not smart enough.

This is Geoff Barton, head of ASCL , school leaders' union, on Sunak's announcement:

www.ascl.org.uk/News/Blog/January-2023/Rishi-Sunak%E2%80%99s-maths-to-18-pledge-is-utterly-out-of

The descriptions of the US system at its best (above) and what the German, Finnish, Canadian and Norwegian systems are like just illustrates that if Sunak really wanted to do this, there would have to be discussions about the shape, intent and purpose of the entire educational system. This just is not going to happen. For a start, they would have to talk to the education profession which they rarely do , then they would have to invest huge amounts of money , time and funding and they would need more teachers! In every single one of the school systems they name in their press release teachers are more highly paid, and more highly trained professionals.

The US system is interesting.
Bu we don't have summer schools here to help catch up / re-enforce.
We also don't keep children back a year if needed.

My DD2 got on in maths so much better once she was in secondary because she was then taught at her own pace, and away from kids who called out the answer before she had understood the question.

Personally having done a maths degree, I'm not even convinced I could scrape a pass at A level now without a lot of prep. Definitely use it or lose it. (I do think I could get a 7+ tomorrow in the GCSE though, might need a formula sheet.)

Really would require a lot more investment and a wholescale change. Investing enough in teachers and buildings so that schools could have smaller class sizes would be the better aim right now. I reckon that would make a big difference. DD's class is only 14 children, so the teacher and TA have time for everyone, there's also a good system of extra support, once a week the teacher holds an extra class and invites children who are struggling with anything that week and helps them. And children are kept behind if needed, one boy in her class is a year older, he was kept behind in 1st grade because he missed so much school due to cancer, so he wouldn't miss out on the basics. High school you design your own study track, building modules from different subjects together to form credits, and go at your own pace not having to keep with your year cohort so you can finish high school in 2 years if you are a motivated fast learner or 4 years if you prefer to take more time over it (3 years is the norm). Those that aren't quite ready for high school, or not sure what they want to study at the end of comprehensive school can do an extra year doing a preparatory course - think of the difference that could make to those who aren't ready yet at 16 to think about their future, need another year to mature and improve their grades.

That’s a really good response.