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Compulsory maths for all students in England till they're 18

195 replies

noblegiraffe · 03/01/2023 22:58

Says the front page of the Telegraph. Sunak's new big plan.

It's not going to happen, they know it won't happen, and they were told it couldn't happen in 2017 when they read Prof Smith's review into post-16 maths education that they commissioned.

We haven't got enough maths teachers, this is just bullshit posturing. Fret ye not.

Compulsory maths for all students in England till they're 18
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noblegiraffe · 04/01/2023 15:42

Far better to have some kind of compulsory "life-skills numeracy" qualification that the vast majority of people can achieve - those who achieve it early can go onto the GCSE, those who struggle can continue taking numeracy lessons until they pass it. At least then it's something that demonstrates they have a basic ability in numeracy which is a hell of a lot better than a grade 1 or 2 (i.e. FAIL) at GCSE!

To be fair, a lot of schools do enter kids who will badly fail their GCSE for entry level or level 1 maths qualifications so that they have a chance of getting something.

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londonmummy1966 · 04/01/2023 16:28

noblegiraffe · 04/01/2023 15:34

Finance, engineering, computing - big earners - all benefit from a solid maths background.

There are quite a few things about your posts that worry me. I think I'm right in thinking you are a maths teacher? So possibly an element of bias. As a historian who hated maths with a passion perhaps I can throw my bias in the opposite direction.

Life is not all about earning lots of money - perhaps we should make history a compulsory subject to 18 to teach a broader perspective? Life should be about being fulfilled and doing the things we enjoy. For my DH (whose 7 A levels include 3 different types of maths plus physics and chemistry) algorithms are a source of joy in his working life. I could think of nothing worse and found satisfaction in a career in accountancy that involved meeting lots of different people and trying to sort out their personal finances. In all my years as a tax partner I never once needed to use any maths that I had not learned at primary school. (This is why, contrary to what a PP said upthread, you do not need A level maths to become a chartered accountant.) However the grammatical rigor I learnt taking A level Latin was immensely useful for tackling the seemingly impenetrable depths of the tax legislation. I worked with a very broad range of professionals including bankers, brokers and lawyers and many of those had arts degrees. Not every job in finance is rocket science.

the economy isn’t struggling due to a lack of people with art qualifications.

This is just so wrong. Whilst finance is the biggest contributor to the UK economy, the second is creative arts. Arguably, therefore, we could grow the economy better by focusing on our world beating skills in this area and turning out more people with arts qualifications rather than trying to push reluctant teenagers into STEM. It is also the case that the arts are probably the one area of the economy where human talent and creativity is unlikely to be overtaken by AI. (You can programme the rules for composing a fugue into a robot but the end result will not compare favourably with the Well Tempered Clavier.)

This week we have been looking back on the career of Vivienne Westwood - fashion also contributes well to the UK economy and it is also an area where we are seen as a world leader and as innovators. We wouldn't be there without people who are artistic and in most cases have art qualifications from world leading institutions like St Martin's.

In fact (trying to bring in the balance expected in a history essay) we need a wide range of well educated people across all fields to develop a decent economy. A significant growth field in the UK is computer games development and that needs both computer whizzes and decent graphic artists - I suspect that few games designed exclusively by one or the other would be that good.

What we really need in post 16 education is an acceptance that it takes all sorts and a good hard look at what it is meant to achieve. This ought to be fostering a love of learning one's preferred subjects and laying the foundations for living a fulfilling life. For some that may be a vocational qualification that leads directly into work or a degree apprenticeship, for others it might be an IB type qualification that means they don't need to specialise too early. However, for many teenagers like me, you know what you want to do well before the sixth form. For my husband that was as much STEM as possible and to give up English, which he hated, and for me that was humanities/arts A levels and to drop the tedium of maths and French as soon as possible. I just wish the government would stop pushing STEM to the exclusion of all other subjects and take a proper balanced look at what we expect our teenagers to do.

SnowAndFrostOutside · 04/01/2023 16:31

Kazzyhoward · 04/01/2023 15:40

Which is fine for them. What isn't fine is trying to teach (and usually failing) complex mathematics to people with poor numeracy skills who are highly unlikely to find themselves in those high paying careers. They still need numeracy skills for basic jobs and normal life, but are turned off "maths" because of the complex things such as Trig, quadratic equations, surds, pythagoras, Pi, etc. Personally, I think we need to break Maths down into two subjects, one being numeracy concentrating on the basics such as basic percentages, fractions, averages and statistics, and a completely separate "maths" subject aimed at the more complex areas such as trig, pythagoras, equations, etc.

But the foundation for basic maths like percentages, fractions, averages and statistics are already taught in KS2. There is no need to rebrand what we already have. We are just very bad at teaching our children the basics in primary.

DC1 is in Year 7 so I have just gone through all of these with her in year 6 SATS. I assume you are just talking about mean, median, centiles, normal distribution and reading a simple graph. Not Bayesian statistics or time series analysis. (Many here shows a lack of understanding of what statistics really is). With a Engineering undergraduate, I'm much stronger in the areas you said are difficult. When I did my PhD, it's the statistics side with Bayseian modelling, Markov models and Kalman filters that really did my head in.

SnowAndFrostOutside · 04/01/2023 16:33

I mean I see statistics as data analysis and modelling, which is very relevant in many finance and data science jobs. They are both very highly paid, and definitely not something to be taught as 'functional mathematics'.

TeenDivided · 04/01/2023 16:51

Statistics and other numeracy aren't just about the work place.
If the general public understood probability and risk better they would perhaps make better choices regarding things like vaccination. They might be better able to see through statements like 'we are spending more on education than ever before' rather than looking at e.g. allowing for inflation cost per head of pupils.
If they really understood interest rates etc maybe some wouldn't get into so much debt and would more easily get out of it.

Kazzyhoward · 04/01/2023 16:54

@londonmummy1966

In all my years as a tax partner I never once needed to use any maths that I had not learned at primary school.

Same here. I've been an accountant for 40 years, and have worked in most disciplines including tax, audit, management accounting, trusts, computer systems, etc. The "maths" required is remarkably basic, and as you say, Primary School level mostly. If you can add up a column of figures, do pretty simple arithmetic, work out simple percentages, fractions and averages, you've cracked it really. I'd say a decent mark at a numeracy 11+ exam and you've got the numeracy skills needed for accountancy!

The most demanding part in terms of both studying & passing accountancy exams and practical day to day needs was law as we had to study basic law, company law, and of course, the tax side of things is heavily law based - more so than numeracy skills based. I seem to recall that those with History A levels or history graduates were favoured over Maths A level/Maths degrees because of the need to understand complex laws, so the a history background was a better skill set than Maths.

It's always amused me when people assume I'm some kind of Maths wizzard because I'm an accountant - nothing could be further from the truth, I really struggled with Maths at school, mainly because when you get to O and A level, it's far too complex and irrelevant for "real life" whereas accountancy and tax IS real life.

Kazzyhoward · 04/01/2023 16:59

TeenDivided · 04/01/2023 16:51

Statistics and other numeracy aren't just about the work place.
If the general public understood probability and risk better they would perhaps make better choices regarding things like vaccination. They might be better able to see through statements like 'we are spending more on education than ever before' rather than looking at e.g. allowing for inflation cost per head of pupils.
If they really understood interest rates etc maybe some wouldn't get into so much debt and would more easily get out of it.

Yes, but teaching of personal finance in schools as part of Maths is very patchy and minimal compared the sheer amount of time and effort they put into radius of a circle, pythagoras, solving simultaneous equations, etc.

I'm sure pupils would be a lot more engaged if lessons were more relevant to real life scenarios.

When my DS was doing his GCSE and A level Maths, I despaired at the "real life" examples and workings re compound and simple interest - it was all couched in terms of equations, x to the power of y (can't remember the compound interest equation) - basically impossible to relate it to real life of getting a car on loan or HP or not paying off your credit card in full every month. It's taught from an academic point of view rather than a user point of view.

noblegiraffe · 04/01/2023 17:00

Life is not all about earning lots of money

Grin you’re talking to someone with a maths degree who went into teaching. You don’t need to tell me!

You say that the creative industry contributes to the economy - is there a shortage of people who want to be actors/screenwriters/designers? Huge vacancies? I don’t know, but I don’t think so? If there aren’t, then it’s not an area that the government should be overly concerned with in terms of education.

When it comes to STEM though, there are dire shortages in some areas, which is a real problem that needs to be addressed. Immigration is one way it’s being managed, as is outsourcing work abroad, but growing our own should be also a focus.

Incidentally, as we are on a female dominated forum, this could, of course, be a way to improve the financial lot and job security of women.

I don’t disagree with your posts about the value of history or other subjects, but if we’re going to pick any subject to make compulsory to 18, it would be sensible for a government to pick maths.

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Kazzyhoward · 04/01/2023 17:01

SnowAndFrostOutside · 04/01/2023 16:33

I mean I see statistics as data analysis and modelling, which is very relevant in many finance and data science jobs. They are both very highly paid, and definitely not something to be taught as 'functional mathematics'.

We're not really talking about degrees here though, nor the higher ability pupils. The skills/ability shortage/crisis is about the huge proportion of 16 year olds who really struggle with the basics of Maths - they're not the ones who'll be going on to Maths related degrees!

noblegiraffe · 04/01/2023 17:06

The skills/ability shortage/crisis is about the huge proportion of 16 year olds who really struggle with the basics of Maths

No, there’s a huge shortage at the higher end too.

We need people to be better at maths at all levels.

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BellaCiao1 · 04/01/2023 17:23

Noble Giraffe, don't you think though, that those who are capable of doing maths to A-level are already picking it to pursue? Higher level maths is very specific and not required by a huge proportion of the population.

Those who are interested in higher education and STEM careers are already headed down that path. What we need is more opportunities for those who are less academic to enter these fields. That is for them to leave school at 16 and have the chance to enter work in these fields via apprenticeships and on the job learning.

Hasn't Labour's 2000s policy of pushing everyone into uni taught us anything? No need for over qualification as this just leaves a surplus of people overqualified and underskilled.

Greatly · 04/01/2023 17:28

We need people to be better at maths at all levels

Then the curriculum and the way maths is taught needs to be looked at very closely.

It's not ok for teens who have been taught maths since age 4 to fail their GCSE maths.

BellaCiao1 · 04/01/2023 17:32

@londonmummy1966

Completely agree with your post 👏

My husband works on building sites and the number of young tradesmen who have a huge amount of specific numeracy skills learned on the job is incredible. Things like Pythagoras Theory, Ratio, Algebra are just a few skills used by trades men.

Just because they don't have A-level maths doesn't mean they haven't got excellent numeracy skills. Many tradesmen as they become more experienced stocktake, measure for orders and many also do their own Taxes/VAT.

Horses for courses, not everyone needs to know everything.

JanuaryBluehoo · 04/01/2023 17:35

@Dancingdragonhiddentiger

That's exactly what needs to happen.
Through my dd I've met older teens who don't have any basics at all. There has never been any time to go back to basics/ and the assumption that they know them.
I'd have been delighted if he had announced proper funding, along with Sen teachers, teachers with larger skill sets to come at the basics in different ways to really reach the children who are more visual learners etc etc

That would have been exciting. By late teens its too late.

noblegiraffe · 04/01/2023 17:42

Noble Giraffe, don't you think though, that those who are capable of doing maths to A-level are already picking it to pursue?
Boys are. Girls, not always. Particularly pronounced at further maths! (and engineering, physics and computing).

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BellaCiao1 · 04/01/2023 18:00

noblegiraffe · 04/01/2023 17:42

Noble Giraffe, don't you think though, that those who are capable of doing maths to A-level are already picking it to pursue?
Boys are. Girls, not always. Particularly pronounced at further maths! (and engineering, physics and computing).

Why do you think this is though? I am sure the girls who are capable are still staying on and going into higher education though?

I just don't get how compulsory A-Level maths will help the situation. If anything it may make those forced into it more reluctant to do anything in this field.

thirdtimeluckyorwhat · 04/01/2023 18:07

They won't be able to enforce this the kids just won't do it and they shouldn't either load of rubbish

Sugarfree23 · 04/01/2023 18:22

@Kazzyhoward
In Scotland up until the late '80s maths was split into Maths (geometry, algebra etc) and Airthmetic one paper was without a calculator.

It certainly makes more sense that pushing everyone to do complex maths that few actually need

londonmummy1966 · 04/01/2023 18:32

if we’re going to pick any subject to make compulsory to 18, it would be sensible for a government to pick maths

Not maths as it is in school at the moment though - if we are going to force everyone to attend maths lessons until they are 18 we would have to start teaching them properly as opposed to skimming through the basics badly at primary school and then throwing a load of theory detached from any form of practicalities at them in secondary school. In fact actually lets cut 2 years worth of subject matter from the primary curriculum, spend the primary years introducing each concept slowly and thoroughly and not moving on until it is ingrained. Then teach a bit less of the theory for GCSE maths and teach it more relevantly and add in some useful stuff like stats. Move the less useful stuff like calculus to the further maths syllabus. Then we might have a more numerate general population with the maths skills needed to enter the world of STEM employment at an entry level without having jeopardised the numeracy of those who don't want to do anything mathematical. I have to say, having watched my two DC (both very bright in other areas) struggle with maths, that the fundamental problem with the maths curriculum is that it has been put together by people who found maths easy when it needed to be put together by those who found it hard. For a subject that is to be studied by everyone that is the wrong way round.

Actually if you were to pick a subject that would be useful for everyone I would have thought more education around digital skills would be a much better choice.

is there a shortage of people who want to be actors/screenwriters/designers

There is a big shortage of skills in the creative arts - the Arts Council have done an extensive study on this - the report is available on their website and makes interesting reading to counterbalance the skew towards STEM in school careers services.

noblegiraffe · 04/01/2023 18:34

Then teach a bit less of the theory for GCSE maths and teach it more relevantly and add in some useful stuff like stats. Move the less useful stuff like calculus to the further maths syllabus.

Stats is taught at GCSE, calculus isn't.

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londonmummy1966 · 04/01/2023 18:38

Lucky them - calculus wasted 2 weeks of teaching time at the end of my O level year that would have been far better spent doing practice papers.

Fairislefandango · 04/01/2023 18:43

What kind of nincompoop thinks that the best way to improve the numeracy levels in 16 year-olds is to tack on an extra 2 years of compulsory maths 'in some format', rather than tackling the reasons why those kids have failed to achieve competency in the 12 years they've been learning it so far?! Plus the majority of people will never even need half the maths they did at GCSE.

whatadoodledo · 04/01/2023 18:47

The disinterested kids will just annoy those who are taking it seriously

Piggywaspushed · 04/01/2023 18:50

Sugarfree23 · 04/01/2023 18:22

@Kazzyhoward
In Scotland up until the late '80s maths was split into Maths (geometry, algebra etc) and Airthmetic one paper was without a calculator.

It certainly makes more sense that pushing everyone to do complex maths that few actually need

I did that! I did better in maths, much to my teacher's bewilderment.

noblegiraffe · 04/01/2023 19:10

The DfE have published a blog "Studying maths to 18 - What you need to know"

It doesn't contain what you need to know.

educationhub.blog.gov.uk/2023/01/04/studying-maths-to-18-what-you-need-to-know/

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