Compulsory maths for all students in England till they're 18

[noblegiraffe]

Says the front page of the Telegraph. Sunak's new big plan.

It's not going to happen, they know it won't happen, and they were told it couldn't happen in 2017 when they read Prof Smith's review into post-16 maths education that they commissioned.

We haven't got enough maths teachers, this is just bullshit posturing. Fret ye not.

Which PM was that?

I fought my school tooth and claw to stop studying maths at 16. Everyone in my school had to do higher maths. I would not have been able to continue two languages, history and biology if I'd been forced to do maths. In the end I won my argument and an extra history class was set up for the refuseniks. I got AAAAB. If I'd done maths, I would not have got those results. And those results opened up better university options to me.

That said , the Scottish system did make it more likely that young people continued with a greater diversity of subjects beyond 16.

English Post 16 is going through the floor, unlike maths. Lots of this is to do with policy messaging. And also the end of ASs has lost a lot of bright, ambitious boys from English and history.

You could make it really interesting and broad. A module on financial maths, mortgages, credit cards etc. Use Martin Lewis's material. A module on maths in art, Fibonacci, Escher. An old GCSE coursework type module. A module on puzzles. A module on origami or programming language.

In reality I imagine it'll be a computer course that kids will be sat in front of. Do other countries despise maths as much as the UK? I think that attitude is the one that needs tackling. No one boasts about not being able to read.

Since living here I've noticed that people seem very happy/comfortable with being 'rubbish at maths' and it's weirdly almost a point of pride? There's a really weird narrative about maths being hard so it's ok not to have reasonably basic skills, rather than treating it as a basic building block for later life just like language.

@Cherrypi
A module on investment also and index funds, how a company works,how to asses what you are buying/investing in etc.

Books like JL Collins simple path to wealth,talk knowledgeably about stocks and shares ISA and sipps.

The whole idea is just bonkers and completely unfeasible since there is a dire shortage of Maths teachers as it is and a worrying number of woefully under qualified Maths teachers.

I think this just shows how out of touch our PM is with what is happening in schools.
I mean it is a great theory, and I’m fully behind enhancing the maths skills of our population. BUT, there is a crisis in schools. There are not enough teachers as it is, and I agree with every poster who said that primary students are being taught too much without enough focus on the basics. When I first started working in secondary I was shocked by the sheer number of “average” ability students who couldn’t tell the time, or perform column subtraction, or column multiplication and didn’t know their times tables or place value. Yet they were being taught averages and solving two step linear equations.
that should be the focus - arithmetic. With that basic foundation, calculating the equation of a linear graph is pointless.

however, and this thread is absolute proof of what I am about to say, the biggest thing to improve mathematical outcomes is the wider societies opinion on maths. So many people hear saying what’s the point, you don’t need it, I never needed it and I’m fine, maths is hard, etc etc. are Singapore citizens just naturally more gifted at maths? Or are they better because it’s encouraged in the home and wider society? And therefore they go into school and into lessons with the belief that they can do it, as opposed to the belief that it’s too hard and pointless.

Rishi also needs to focus more on retaining the teachers we all ready have. I’m starting my pgce in maths this September, because the bursary the offer is very attractive. However, I don’t have much intention of being a mainstream full time teacher because, as passionate about teaching maths as I am, I just can’t get behind how schools focus more on what colour pen students are writing and marking in.

The UK shortage professions list currently includes things like:
-Nuclear scientists.
-Biochemical/biomedical scientists
-A range of jobs within geophysical science.
-Pretty much any type of engineer going.
-A large range of jobs in computing and IT.
-Vets.
-Architects.
-Lab techs.

These are all jobs where a high level of maths skill is really useful, or indeed, necessary. BTW, there are entry routes into some of these careers for those less accademic- for example the BTEC applied science route can lead to people going into biomedical science, or becoming a lab technician (among other things, obviously). But for some of these jobs you genuinely do need a high level of mathematical competency.

For balance, there is also a shortage of certain types of dance choreographer, orchestral musicians, graphic designers, too.

I don't think it's true that there is a surplus of "overqualified" people. I think there are lot of people with qualifications which don't lead to specific employment. That doesn't mean their higher education didn't have value, btw.

In terms of everyone capable doing maths already, that definitely isn't the case- now most students just do 3 A-levels and no AS, a lot of students who could do maths don't. I definitely teach some students who could do A-level maths but have opted to study 3 sciences instead.

FWIW, I couldn't name a school in my local area with a maths department that's fully staffed by specialists, so it's all a bit moot.

Sorry haven't read the whole thread but wouldn't it be better for the uk to move towards a new post 16 qualification?

I always think the IB looks better for the more academic at that age (not that either of my dc have done it) as surely it keeps more options open longer. I do feel in the uk we are very quick to narrow kids choices down quickly which is fine for kids who know their career path but for others they can end up with three random a levels.

Having said that I also have a dyslexic dc who really struggled with exams. Is a consistent hard worker and will have no problems in the real world but flounders on memory testing like exams.

Why maths? We need more focus on arts and humanities, subjects that teach critical thinking and that promote creativity. Or does Sunak just want a workforce of drones in a digital economy?

Re vets....one of the reasons fir shortage is because of high levels of stress in the job, high drop out and difficulty in accessing degrees. Vets , sadly, have high suicide rates.

It isn't always about not having people with the skillsets.

I agree it's not always about people having the skillsets, and I think working conditions in a lot of jobs is a factor.

But to say we have a massive oversupply of people with the relevant skills is also false, IMO.

FWIW, I agree- we narrow way too much at 16.

However, post-16 education runs on the idea that students study a small amount of subjects, and spend time engaged in self study of those subjects- hence free periods etc.

Personally, I think we should be seriously looking at proper full time education to 16- i.e. students engaged in lessons nearly all of the time, with perhaps a few study periods in the week, taking a broader range of subjects, and studying them in a bit less depth in many cases.

But this wouldn't be viable with the current level of funding- even though 16-18yos are in compulsory education, they get less funding than other age groups. The current funding doesn't pay for full time teaching- it's one of the reason a lot of state schools can't offer the IB- it needs more contact hours than is viable, I believe.

I'm not remotely mathsy myself but both my kids are and it's really irritating to see mathsy people described as 'drones', uncreative, boring etc. It's also galling to see these posts coming from people who simultaneously talk about the importance of critical thinking - doesn't that involve informing yourself about something before forming an opinion?

Higher maths is mind-blowing stuff (not that I understand any of it) and for the people who are good at it it's deeply creative. Applied maths leads to extraordinary real-world achievement and pure maths involves the most abstruse, abstract, mind-bending concepts that anyone could possibly come up with.

I fully understand that lots of people had bad experiences with maths at school but please don't call my kids and their friends 'drones' and don't think they lack creativity. It's just a type of creativity that isn't easily accessible to most of us because we didn't study maths past 16

Good for them. They'll enjoy studying it to a high level in that case. Noone is calling your kids names 🙄

Good idea in theory, however, in reality it'll be about decade before anyone begins to look about houses/mortgages. A lot if the things being talked about are things people don't look into until the time in their lives they need to. It would be an unbelievably boring topic to study.

Being taught about credit scores and financial management would be more beneficial. Also, not all knowledge needs to be tested, this would make it more enticing for many.

I think it says a lot about both how maths are taught and the English attitude towards maths that so many people are rubbishing it in this thread.

Ideally we wouldn't have this hard split between humanities/arts and sciences that the English system has. Students would study a broad variety of subjects, they'd study some to more depth than others, and universities would consider the full picture. I'd equally say that scientists and engineers shouldn't be dropping all other subjects at 16.

Not everyone is going to be an engineer and need the equivalent of A-Level further maths, but there's an increasing demand for numeracy and data analysis in all kinds of fields. I've advised my children that even if they major in humanities or social sciences (US system) they should take statistics.

@knitnerd90
Make them do at least AB Calc or college level Calc classes. Some universities will make them do this.

It's considered evidence of the ability to think if any of them apply to grad school even in areas considered 'humanities', and you never know how their plans will change as they make their way toward graduation.

So true.

GMTV once spent a whole programme on '50% of Hospitals are below average' and how terrible this was.

I spent a wholly enjoyable few years teaching Functional Maths to adults as part of vocational courses, most of whom hadn’t succeeded at school (some were ESOL students with a high level of mathematical competence but whose qualifications weren’t recognised in the UK).
The most interesting thing was the very many reasons why they hadn’t succeeded previously. Much was traceable back to primary school and basic misunderstanding, particularly of fractions. Many students said that teaching was all “too fast” for them. Some was to do with mathematical vocabulary, for example the meaning of the word “equation”. Dyslexia has a huge impact on Maths, for some people far more significant than its impact on English (genuine dyscalculia, the lack of a sense of number, is rare, IMO.). Some problems were associated with a history of poor mental or physical health, or poor school attendance for a number of reasons. A very common and worrying problem was having been taught by non-specialists or a succession of supply teachers for long periods of time, particularly in Y10 or Y11.

The majority of those I taught were bright, willing and competent people whose lack of success in Maths was a very real burden to them. When they did pass their Level 2 exam it was in some cases transformational for them, both practically and psychologically.
The idea of continuing mathematical education until 18 is a good one, but courses would need to be tailored closely to learners’ needs and in most cases delivered by specialists. However, knowing the way things are going, it’s more likely that the model most widely adopted will be booking people onto generic online courses, supervised by non-specialists, which will tick boxes but only compound problems for individuals.

Yes, my senior is currently in Calc BC.

my experience has been that the academic students are really pushed to take all subjects through to 12th grade, and the best ones take the hardest courses they can regardless of what they plan to study.

A friend of mine teaches community college maths, and she gets a lot of students who didn't do well in high school and think they "can't do maths". They're often pleasantly surprised to find out that if they are properly taught and do the work that they can do well.

In terms of everyone capable doing maths already, that definitely isn't the case- now most students just do 3 A-levels and no AS, a lot of students who could do maths don't. I definitely teach some students who could do A-level maths but have opted to study 3 sciences instead.

Unfortunately there is no incentive to do AS levels now for many students. Dd applying to medicine did do AS maths, but virtually none of the schools place any value on it. If she had done well on an EPQ then she might be able to have a lower grade offer of AAB rather than AAA. If they hadn't made A levels harder a few years ago more students might take four including maths.

I noticed in the DfE release a list of countries which have students take maths to 18. All have entirely different educational systems. Some of the countries have envied educational systems : Canada, Finland; some not so much.

Some have eg a tripartite system; some have entirely mixed ability teaching; very few of them have anything like our obsession with terminal exams. It's the usual cherry picking when it suits.

I am noticing an interesting movement away from ' our A levels are gold standard and the envy of the world'. We certainly do recruit people from overseas to our education system - A level and university especially. Is the government actually going to reform the entire education system and adopt , say, a Finnish model, or a Canadian one?

Of course not - it's just going to bolt on some fairly meaningless extra lessons and let schools solve the staffing...

Yeah no way is the UK going to move to a completely different model, I really can't see that happening, so with the current model it would be very difficult to add in maths for everyone unless its something very simple like functional maths for an hour a week.

In Finland, even at immigrant school where I went for language lessons we had to do maths! Making sure everyone is basically functional in maths is considered that important.