Maths A Level - is it true how hard it is?

[bendmeoverbackwards]

Dd is in Year 11 and about to finalise her A level choices. She wants to do Sociology and Psychology and is thinking about Maths for her third choice.

She had some problems with mental health and subsequent school attendance in Year 10. This year has been much better but her attendance is still a bit low. She is very bright and seems to be working at home and catching up with what she's missed.

Her current predicted grade for Maths is a 6 (was a 7 previously) but has been getting 7s in tests. They need a 7 for Maths A Level at their school and she thinks she can achieve this.

I've heard how hard Maths A Level is, its a huge jump from GCSE, it's one of the hardest A levels. Is this true?

I would say she has a very good Maths brain which was evident from when she was young. She just seems to work out things herself and was always top at primary school and given extension work etc.

Does it sound like she would cope?

It's just competition, pure and simple. Same with the jobs market when the time comes. When a Uni/Employer has huge numbers of applicants, they have to thin down the list, and a "quick and dirty" way of doing that is by exam grades initially. They can't individually read applications from nor interview hundreds or thousands of applicants so they have have to "screen out" large numbers of people to make the "final" lists small enough to review.

My son (Uni year 3) has been doing job applications over the past couple of months. He's been incredibly demoralised that literally seconds after he submits the initial application, he gets a rejection email, and he's only been applying for jobs where he meets the published criteria, so the systems are set up to automatically exclude applicants at higher grades than published! (Yes, he's checked he meets all criteria, completes all sections of the application form, etc). His flat mates are saying the same. BUT, over the past couple of weeks, a couple of employers who initially rejected his applications have got back to him to "invite" him to the next stage of the application process, so it sounds like they rejected too many at first and have had to adjust their rejection criteria to "accept" more applicants to get enough for the next stages. Unis work in the same way by the clearing system where they accept lower grades when they have unfilled places on their courses!

It's not pleasant, but rejection is a fact of life, in all walks of life, when there's someone "better" in the eyes of the third party, whether it's a Uni course, a job, a boy/girl friend, etc, and it does our youngsters no favours to start labelling "normal" life events as "mental health issues".

It's a massive leap and I feel you have to actually love Maths and not just be good at it

My DS was very good up until GCSE, came away with an 8, got a 6 at SATs, highest you could possibly get in CATs, gained certificates in all of the kangaroo/Olympiad things every year.

Went on to do A Level and absolutely hated it. Fell totally out of love with it and ended up with an E. He had to want to do it, want to put in the extra work etc, but he didn't. He just hated it.

I did Maths and Further Maths at A Level and got high As in both (pre A stars and 1-9s). If you're good at Maths then it's not too much of a leap. The Further Maths was challenging but it depends what areas of maths you're good at and what modules you're doing. I loved mechanics, pure was ok but hated statistics. This makes a difference if you're studying an a level that's heavily weighted in areas of maths you struggle with.

@IdisagreeMrHochhauser the whole A level system has completely changed since you sat yours. Dh also did maths/fm and both our sons have done it too and it is not the same.

The projected grade from GCSE grade 7 (an A) is most likely a D at A level, closely followed by a C. An exam board actually followed the students through from GCSE to A level. The table of these results is on the linked post above but I have put it here too. Most A levels are a 1 grade drop from GCSE unless you put some serious work in but maths is the exception. The post below is by noble who is a maths teacher and sees this time and time again.

www.mumsnet.com/talk/secondary/4007205-How-maths-GCSE-result-predicts-A-level-maths-result-important-for-grade-6-7

@bendmeoverbackwards A B is a great grade but as you know this limits where she can apply to uni if that is her goal. Hypothetically would she want to live away from home or live at home and go to the local uni? I know this is your 3rd time round for this (I am Bench) but I don't know if she sees herself going or whether she wants to work or apply for apprenticeships.

Would you or your Dh be able to help her with Classics? It is because you said tutor for maths so I am assuming you can't help her with that one. As I said previously it comes down to resilience. Ds said that some very capable students struggled with lower grades and instead of this motivating them to master it instead it made them more reluctant to study. He did peer on peer teaching for his mate who also got a 9 but was missing some basic fundamentals which was impacting his A level maths understanding. Your DD could work on maths over the summer. She should have 10 weeks or so off school. Would she want to do that?

Hobbi Just reinforcing the point of the poster below me.

No, you just listed your child's achievements and potential, with no context.

I'm going to write too much, because what you're asking is so much bigger than "Is maths hard?". Apologies.

Maths is the most polarising of subjects. It's not that it is hard - it might be on average, but it's so subjective that I'm not sure that matters. If it comes easily you're laughing, but I think that if you are struggling it is so much harder to face a 2 hour maths exam than either an essay subject or a science subject. It's HARD to struggle at maths, there can be a bit of a brick wall which personally I find much more demoralising and sapping of self confidence than turning in essays that get a 2:2 equivalent. And that in particular might be a very bad fit for her, with ASD and mental health difficulties.

OTOH if she's potentially getting a 7 despite mental health difficulties and has a history of clicking with maths, maybe it will come easily to her and be a great fit. She might find just doing 3 subjects instead of 9 much more manageable, and thrive at A level. If she's doing 2 soc sci, then maths would break up her week a bit. Also if getting 2 A levels would still be a great achievement for her (as it would be for my autistic child - I'm just over the moon he's coping with school at all!) then weirdly it gives her a bit more grace to try it, and drop it if needed.

Bit of a random suggestion but the various Maths Challenges and Olympiad questions are all available online and might give you a sense of how fluent she is in thinking mathematically, and how much she enjoys it.

Also consider whether her maths teacher being non-comittal was actually them sending a message that they would advise against. They will tend to speak positively to parents so does the lack of a clear "yes" carry meaning? That said, ASD and mental health difficulties both make it harder for the teacher to see what she's capable of, and they can only comment on what they have seen.

@bendmeoverbackwards even if she doesn't know what career she wants I'd suggest you look at which degrees she might like to study, then look at the entry requirements. E.g. Law might well require English.

Maths is an odd one, for those who "get maths" it's easy, one of my DD's got full marks! For those like me who struggle with maths, gcse is a stretch

Hobbi, the point of the poster was clear within the context of this overall thread - that child ended up with higher predictions in other subjects which were not maths……maths is harder to do well in, even from high GCSE starting point.

It was not a boast from the poster, as you suggest, with what is a snippy comment. Instead, it is a valid and useful example for OP to consider as her DC makes A Level choices.

Some people find these facts about A Level Maths’ outcomes following different GCSE outcomes difficult and don’t want to accept or face them. This is evident every year when it comes to GCSE choices at this stage, and final confirmation after GCSE results come out. Every year, kids and parents who have GCSE Maths of 5/6/7 push to take A Level Maths, and struggle to understand or refuse to understand the likely trajectory.
And parents with kids who are on track for/get 6/7s at GCSE often struggle with the idea that these grades, whilst decent, might not be the grades that result in too A Level performance, and that there quite simply isn’t a level playing field in terms of starting point - GCSE grades really do have a key role in predicting and enabling success at A Level. 6/7 at GCSE is a solid grade. B/C at A Level is a solid grade. No-one disputes this. In the past, when parents were taking A Levels, B/C at A Level could get people onto really good courses at top universities. What we have to remember is there has been massive grade inflation and that has to be reflected in university offers, especially as larger numbers apply now too. So for those who get upset that a B/C ‘isn’t good enough’ - well, it is a solid grade, but it’s true that a mix of B and C grades probably won’t get students into the most competitive courses at the most competitive universities. How can that be surprising when you see the large numbers who now achieve Astar/A?

My final thought about Maths for students with 8 and below at GCSE Maths, is that if they don’t need it for their next step, it’s best to choose something else and get a higher A Level result. Even students who have achieved an 8 might have only got around 60% at GCSE so not fully grasped 40% of the paper’s content. If you think if it like that, you can see why some places really will only take a 9.

The only people I’d say who should be considering it with an 8, and at a push with a very high 7, are those who absolutely need Maths for their next step (ie Economics) and who are willing to accept that a B is the very tops for them and a C/D more likely and are willing to go to a Uni that requires those grades. The folly comes when those who had a 7/8 at GCSE maths start wanting to get Uni places which will require them to have an A or A* in A Level maths.

I agree that Maths A Level can be miserable and inaccessible for someone with a 7 at GCSE. In other subjects, even if you’re not great, you can follow the broad theme if a lesson, fill multiple pages with an essay and access the subject at a level that works for you. In Maths, you could spend multiple hours per week not following what’s going on, struggling with homework and just not knowing where to start. It can be thoroughly demoralising in a way other subjects probably aren’t. It’s really worth considering this.

And yes, there are a few with a 7/8 who have a very good reason why they underperform, who are capable of a 9. However, it needs to be recognised these are a small number, and this not to be taken as the reality for the majority who get 7/8 who really fancy Maths (or their parents do). For lots that 7/8 is a great achievement in their set of GCSE results. They will always have a really good GCSE Maths grade in their CV ….but that’s just not the same as being good candidates to do well at A Level Maths. People need to understand the realities of A Level Maths and that for all but the very able at it, it’s not a great option.

A C in maths, together with A and Bs in 2 other subjects, especially if 1 of them is a facilitating subject, like English or a science, will get you offers from good universities like Plymouth or Oxford Brooks or mid ranked London unis. And being reasonably good at maths - no need to be a genius- will help tremendously with the next stage, namely getting onto a graduate scheme by passing an assessment test (which are mainly maths based) and actually being good at a variety of jobs, as especially the better paid ones usually require a certain affinity with maths. Even a sociologist or psychologist btw would need statistics, so I would still encourage A level maths if op's dc is interested in psychology and sociology.

I agree, that having studied Maths and having Maths A Level can be useful for a number of careers, even if not at a top grade. And yes, those graduate recruitment tests always do have elements of maths and those without A Level maths are likely to find them harder. It’s likely that those getting onto the most prestigious and competitive grad training schemes are more likely to have A Level Maths. However, chances are also that those getting onto those schemes have top A Level results and would be weeded out at early stages without them.

However,the difficulty of seeing a lower grade at A Level Maths as very worthwhile, is you have to do the course for 2 years and it can be absolute misery. Some of those people who scrape a B, might just as easily get the C or D. The trouble is, for those who aren’t whizzo mathematicians, it can be miserable and the outcome very unknown, so guagimgnuni applications even more difficult than usual.

If you’re dead set in a career that requires maths, you probably have to do it and struggle through, accepting you might not end up with as high A Levels as otherwise, and it might impact which Uni, but ultimately you’ll get o to the degree you want to do and be able to access the career you want, even if not at the most prestigious firms. Otherwise, it’s prob best to look at stuff you’re more likely to do well in, and get the better results and access to better courses - even if you do close some doors in the process.

It’s not just about the GCSE grade though is it? My oldest dd really struggled with Maths, she was in bottom set throughout secondary school. But with good teaching and a lot of hard work, she got an A at GCSE (not that far from an A* in fact). I think you have to look more widely than just the result at GCSE.

I just don’t know, the deadline for submitting their choices is tomorrow. I have reassured dd that there will be ample opportunity to change her mind between now and next September.

I think you're just highlighting the point that lots of posters have been trying to make. With a 6/7 your daughter is not necessarily likey to do well even with great teaching and lots of hard work. You just can't compare GCSE with A level, especially in maths. You have received some really informed and wise advice from.lots of people here. Of course you don't need to accept it but I'm amazed you are still struggling to see the clear and obvious decision here. I don't want to sound discouraging but I have just seen too many students (particularly ones with mental.health vulnerabilities) crash and burn due to poor post 16 choices. It breaks my heart to see them struggle, take the knock to self esteem and wellbeing and close down potential future avenues all when the whole unhappy outcome was clear from.day 1.

I got an A* at GCSE with no revision (other than what we did in school and the minimum set homework), so signed up for double maths A level as I'd really enjoyed GCSE. The jump was massive, compounded by pretty crap teachers (clearly gifted in their subject but not able to modify their teaching to the learner) and the need for an awful lot of independent study, which I'm poor at organising and sticking to (20yrs on I am waiting to be assessed for ADHD and ASD, which would explain this). It became dull and difficult very quickly, and in the end I gained 1 (D grade) A level in the first year rather than 2 over the two years. IMO you need to be very gifted at Maths, have a natural work ethic AND luck out with a dynamic teacher to succeed at A level. If you lack any of those 3, you are in for a rough two years and a low grade at the end of it.

OP from the posts on here, people are posting in good faith and trying to give you the best advice they can in respect of your DD's choices.

The evidence is clear. GCSE results are a very good indication of performance at A Level.

To reiterate, at a grade 7 (a very respectable grade) the overwhelming likelihood is a C/D at A Level.

You say GCSE grade is not everything and yes, there will always be outlier's but the chances of you DD (especially when she's not even a solid 7 and is being predicted a 6 and has struggled with her MH) being one of them is negligible.

I don't say this to be unkind. I genuinely wish you and your DD well, which is exactly why I would steer you away from A Level maths.

It's also worth really reconsidering what another poster pointed out.

A grade 7 only equals roughly a 60% pass rate. The questions that get the 8/9 grades are exactly those that test the maths that is a gateway to A Level and your DD is not successfully answering those questions.

I think people see maths as an homogeneous subject but it's not. Some people can be great at statistics but fall flat when it comes to mechanics. To do well at A Level you have be good at all of them.

The best analogy I can think of is if you study history and one module is WWI and another Ancient Rome, even if the latter time period doesn't float your boat, the mindset and techniques to do well in one still apply to the other.

That just not true in maths because to get Uni level grades, you have to be as a minimum competent in all modules. Scoring A* in statistics won't offset D/E level performance in core/mechanics/pure.

Even with the best teachers and tutoring, in the circumstances you describe (and where you have already stated the pressure of taking 4 A Levels on the basis she could drop maths if it didn't work out would be too much pressure) I think you really need to reflect on what people have posted.

I've nothing to gain in strongly suggesting she pick a different A Level, especially when you've indicated she doesn't need maths to further her higher educational aspirations - rather I wish you both well and say kindly that A Levels are hard enough without introducing unnecessary pressure and risk.

If her other choice is Class Civ there's an argument for putting that down for tomorrow, as it's a niche subject. I 100% agree there should be lots of scope to change her mind, but decisions may be made on what subjects to run next year based on these selections. It may well be easier to swap from a niche subject to maths than vice versa.

*if Class Civ is not a common subject at her school

That's a very good point.

Thank you for the very good advice, I really appreciate the time taken to reply. It does look like she would struggle. She’s been mulling it over tonight and still hasn’t reached a decision. I was actually encouraging towards PE A level (I have another thread about that!) but she’s not keen.

I completely agree with everything you have said.

It’s also very difficult to get her to listen to advice. I make suggestions and she dismisses them 🙄

@bendmeoverbackwards - just to say if it helps - Ds was at a school where they set off with 4 A levels - he got an A* in GCSE maths so did 3 humanties plus maths . In the end he dropped maths - it was a choice but made with his teachers. He was good but not talented. The decision was to drop maths because the effort it would have taken him could have taken away from the other 3 A levels. Obviously Maths is a good subject but in Ds's experience not worth messing up other A levels because of the effort you have to put into maths - one experience only

My DH was good at maths post A level and studied at University - but he thought maths is a thing where some people are really good & DH said he wasn't as good as them as you go further on Maths is a Thing where some people are talented and he reached where he thought proper maths - I am not the best - so switched to Maths and computing science . Did well . But proper Maths at University - he said I have hit the ceiling.