Removing charitable status for independent schools

[justanotherdaduser]

What do people here think of Labour policy of removing charitable status for private schools?

I am conflicted about it.

DD goes to a London independent and if in three years or so fees rise by 20%, it will not be easy for us.

But that's just our personal circumstances, and while I will be unhappy if fees go up by 20%, I can also see the point Labour is making -

that the school our DD goes to and hundreds of others like it are not really a charity. Most spend no more than 10% of their fee income on bursaries, if that. Vast majority of parents who send children there are comfortably above national average income. The charitable status is an anomaly and independent schools don't deserve tax breaks reserved for charities.

So was wondering how others feel about it.

(Applogies if this is not the right forum. I am mostly a lurker here and wasn't sure what's the best place to post this. Happy to move this somewhere more appropriate if required)

100% ths!

Exactly. And I don’t blame people for attending church simply to get a tick in the box to enable them to go to a better performing school. However, that’s no more “fair” than those parents who have the ability to pay for private education and choose to do so. Most people would think it reasonable to try to do the best by your children whatever your circumstances.

This annual topic comes up again.
Nothing new here. Why doesn’t everyone just re-read the same old threads and be disappointed/angry there instead.

And you’ve got no option but to pretend that their sky God is real if your local comprehensive is failing. Get ready to kiss the vicar’s behind for 10 years and bake and sell cakes

Well one day they will get rid of the vicar and the sky God belief to make sure it is just like the other local comprehensives.

No, you don't have to pretend belief, nor do you have to bake and sell cakes. You may need to attend church regularly until your child is admitted, and some Catholic schools will want to see that your child has been baptised, but that is it.

The discussion about the rights and wrongs of faith-based schools comes up regularly on here. I understand the desire to abolish faith schools, but remember that doing so will cost the taxpayer billions.

@CrankyP
The churches, by and large, don’t fund the schools. RC schools and VA CofE schools usually own the building but they do not fund education in the state sector. It’s mostly from the council tax/government like every other state school. So yes, they should be banned from selecting on religious grounds.

So we’ve got one person saying it will cost billions to get rid of faith based selection and another saying that churches don’t fund them. 🤨. Well it’s hard to have a school without a building. Probably the state and the church pay roughly £6-7000 per child per year to educate a child including the building. Parents of independent school children pay £15000 out of post tax income . The state pay’s nothing. It’s not a subsidy to be VAT exempt. The majority can use their numbers to tax independents but, in the long run, those parents pay a hell of a lot of tax already and you’re not going to encourage them to support paying any more by so obviously gouging an extra £3000.

C of E/Catholic state schools are a bit complicated as I think as someone said above they provide the buildings and land (huge cost to the state otherwise) but we could certainly legislate to move them into the private sector or else move the children to other state schools and the religions sell off their land for housing etc.

Someone asked "If state education isn't good enough for your children (SEN aside) why is it good enough for other children? Why don't you campaign for better investment for all, instead of buying your way out?"
I have no problem with that. We are all born with differences and all choose different paths in life and some have few choices. That is how it is. We have the best political system on earth (capitalism) - there are many things many of us do for our own children that other parents don't and what matters to each of us will vary from hours of prayers a day to virginity until marriage to eating vegan or meat eating, private or state education. There is nothing wrong with there being differences. We are a reasonably meritocratic country compared to many.

Eg I think it is better in the private sector if you are into classical music and want that at school. For most private school parents that will be utterly irrelevant. There are all sorts of reasons people pick a particular school (*for those who have a choice). I tihnk boarding schools are too much of a risk of emotional damage to children so did not send mine. Others think they are the best education for 13+ in the world. In other words what is "better" for one parent is not necessarily better for another. Better for one might be some very disruptive pupils in class to help your child understand some children are either naughty or have difficult needs to meet. Others (including me) would rather pay fees to ensure classes are relatively quiet so teenagers can work.

Well one day they will get rid of the vicar and the sky God belief to make sure it is just like the other local comprehensives

Who will get rid of them? Will schools of all other faiths also be got rid of?

I don't have any real desire to abolish faith based schools tbh. I did find it annoying that my children couldn't get into the local faith based comprehensive on an 'open place' because we live 800m away rather than on the door step. We were not going to attend church regularly etc due to being a completely different religion and ethnicity. I was able to choose independent schools for them rather than the very nearest school with knife crime and security guards in the corridors. I do find it annoying that people have an issue with me choosing independent schooling because we had no option of getting in to the CofE comprehensive which would have been a 15 minute walk.

Andante57 · Today 08:11

I had said, quoting another poster who had spoken sarcastically of a ‘sky God’ and ‘baking cakes for vicars’ and who thinks faith schools are unfair on those who don’t believe,
”Well one day they will get rid of the vicar and the sky God belief to make sure it is just like the other local comprehensives”

Who will get rid of them? Will schools of all other faiths also be got rid of?

Based on peoples’ comments on this thread and others, there is considerable resentment of the perceived unfairness of faith schools because they exclude those without a faith - like the person who came on to this thread who sarcastically talked about ‘sky Gods’ and ‘baking cakes for vicars’.

Presumably the pressure will eventually build up on the government to stop all faith schools.

At present, faith schools tend to have a higher standard. Hence there can be resentment on the part of parents who can’t send their children to them, especially if the alternative schools are bad.

The point I was making is that when eventually they lose their faith basis, they may well also lose their character of being better schools.

Incidentally, in the area where I live, the faith (Catholic) high schools do not take people of a particular faith exclusively as there are some other criteria. They also take Muslims.

I don’t have a problem with faith based selection but I do have a problem with them getting a state subsidy and other schools that select based on ability and/or willingness to pay extra for their children’s education. Both are closed to the general public living in a specific geographic zone at the point of entry. Either both should be subsidised or neither should be. Neither should be taxed.

It’s a stealth tax. If people genuinely thought ‘the parents are rich, they can afford it’ then the answer is higher income taxes and CGT.

I think the best overall solution is to free up faith and academy schools to charge fees and take half of the extra they get from fees off their grant. Use that to increase the overall pie and then you’ve got serious money to do something.

CrankyP · Today 09:12
I think the best overall solution is to free up faith and academy schools to charge fees and take half of the extra they get from fees off their grant. Use that to increase the overall pie and then you’ve got serious money to do something

Would the parents be given ‘education allowance’ vouchers for their DC?

Why are ‘Academies’ somehow unfair now?

Yes, DD is at a RC school, and they have Muslim pupils as well as various Christian denominations. There's a prayer room, and a number of members of staff who are Muslim and who lead the Muslim equivalent of the chaplaincy within the school.

As I have posted before, all the schools in our Borough are good, and out of 9 secondaries 3 are faith based, so no-one is forced to choose between faith based or secular to get a good education for their child.

Not unfair but why wouldn’t parents want to be free to contribute extra funds towards their kid’s education without losing their public subsidy?

There are people of other religions apart from Catholic, other Christian and Muslims.

CrankyP · Today 09:27

“ScrollingLeaves · Today 09:25
Why are ‘Academies’ somehow unfair now?
Not unfair but why wouldn’t parents want to be free to contribute extra funds towards their kid’s education without losing their public subsidy?”

Where I live the
comprehensive is an Academy. It is the local state school. Are you suggesting that parents pay partial fees? I basically don’t understand/am confused by your point.

What I don’t understand is how £5,600 (?) per child excluding buildings (?) is supposed to pay for a state funded education, when good, private non-profit making day schools charge about £15000 minimum including buildings. Even including what must go towards buildings in the private sector, that is a big difference.

Cranky had said
Not unfair but why wouldn’t parents want to be free to contribute extra funds towards their kid’s education without losing their public subsidy?”

Comp schools are already funded per head. If the numbers fall and the kids all go to various faith schools, so does the public money follow them. I’m not an expert in the difference from vouchers.

For those saying that faith schools fund their own buildings etc, this isn’t entirely true. The building of the most recently opened Catholic school, for example, was 90% funded by the government. That school has said that where they are oversubscribed, 80% of places will be allocated to Catholics. How on earth can people possibly argue that private schools are “unfair” whilst being happy with this? Private schools are, on the whole, funded by paying parents and donations. Why would it be ok to place a further tax burden on people paying for these private schools but yet be ok for the state to give funding to discriminatory faith schools?

The fact remains though that faith schools, and private schools, generally provide a very good standard of education and are often viewed as some of the best schools available. Banning or increasing the tax burden on these schools is surely not desirable. Why would we want to punish good schools? Surely we should encourage these schools? Why are so many people intent on having a one-size-fits-all comprehensive system? We should be trying to improve the standards of lower performing schools, not dragging those better performing schools down to the same level.

It’s not a minimum of £15000, it’s an average. But, you’re right. It’s a lot more but that’s spent on more teachers, more choice of subjects like languages and classics, sports teachers, music teachers etc. The extra money goes to teacher salaries and pensions, benefits for the most part. Some have better facilities but how much does it cost to maintain a rugby field?