Removing charitable status for independent schools

[justanotherdaduser]

What do people here think of Labour policy of removing charitable status for private schools?

I am conflicted about it.

DD goes to a London independent and if in three years or so fees rise by 20%, it will not be easy for us.

But that's just our personal circumstances, and while I will be unhappy if fees go up by 20%, I can also see the point Labour is making -

that the school our DD goes to and hundreds of others like it are not really a charity. Most spend no more than 10% of their fee income on bursaries, if that. Vast majority of parents who send children there are comfortably above national average income. The charitable status is an anomaly and independent schools don't deserve tax breaks reserved for charities.

So was wondering how others feel about it.

(Applogies if this is not the right forum. I am mostly a lurker here and wasn't sure what's the best place to post this. Happy to move this somewhere more appropriate if required)

In my DDs prep over half the children had a percentage of financial support, paid for by those who paid full fees. 4 children every year got full burseries assessed on need. The school was tiny only had 78 on roll.

I know this as a good friend was the Bursar, she said it was heartening that for every full fee paying parent there was another child who benefited with subsidised fees.....the facilities were very limited but the teaching was outstanding, and the aspiration instilled in even the most unconfident child was exceptional.
Why does no one want to believe that some private schools do amazing work pairing with a local state school and supporting disadvantaged bright kids into an academic environment they would not have been able to access otherwise.

Yes in a perfect world every child would have unlimited access to the best education....but this does not happen and sadly l cannot see it happening anytime soon.
So dismantling the private school system would be damaging on so many levels for so many, and gain nothing other than satisfying the hatred of the wealthy some seem to be obsessed by.

The wealthiest pay the vast majority of tax, from which the rest benefit.

Lettherebedelight · 02/12/2022 23:06
I would be happy to pay more tax after all a well educated society would benefit us all.

Lettherebedelight you can pay more tax - here is a link from the Guardian;

www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/oct/01/you-can-pay-more-tax-if-you-want-to

Now you know it’s possible, are you going to pay more tax?

@Rafferty10 but offering discounts to parents who can almost afford fees isn’t levelling up. Those children are no doubt well nourished, have books and parents who went to university. It is making no noticeable difference to our society.

How do you make the leap from one policy to all that? There are plenty of countries with no good private schools and no "health, happinness and best people in the jobs those countries need them to be". One does not follow the other.

*Smurfma · Today 09:43

@Rafferty10 but offering discounts to parents who can almost afford fees isn’t levelling up. Those children are no doubt well nourished, have books and parents who went to university. It is making no noticeable difference to our society.*

You are missing my point, 4 children a year from one tiny school were given FULL bursaries, and considerable effort went into finding those who would most benefit and be unlikely to be able to access a great education otherwise.

as for the others, the parents could not have 'nearly' afforded fees, l am talking about burseries up to 75% of fees, (and it was not an expensive school)

Why are you, like so many, determined to not see the benefits private schools offer society as a whole? It may not be a perfect system but it does allow many additional children a route into education they would not have otherwise have had. Essentially paid for by the the wealthier parents.
How can forcing schools that offer;
Burseries full and part
facilities, sports pitches, swimming pools, sports halls, music theatres for free.
collaboration and support
Access to speakers and other resources

to struggle (and some close) BENEFIT poorer children?

It is very clear from this thread that this is about class systems not about what is best for all.

@Rafferty10 I was privately educated and am fully aware of how things work. Some schools are good at what they offer. The vast majority do the tiniest bit of outreach they can get away with to tick the box. I know this because I am in these schools all the time.
I am wondering how the school you are talking about is surviving with a business model like that. 78 pupils, half on significant bursaries, 4 on full bursaries - would love to see their business model. It doesn’t sound like most private schools which definitely couldn’t survive on those stats. Well done them though

Which private schools are owned by profitable companies?

It is very clear from this thread that this is about class systems not about what is best for all.

I think the first part of that sentence has some merit - how private schools can entrench privilege and reduce social mobility - but less about the second, because when you look at the overall (not school by school) figures, the numbers are pretty small, so it's hard to describe it as 'what's best for all.' According to the ISC's own figures, those getting a bursary or scholarship of over 75% of fees was 12,000. So around 2% of the total private school population, or 0.1% of the total number of school age children.

So it's a balance of harm vs benefit, and that is to a large extent subjective and values driven.

I, too, was privately educated at a school with a good reputation for active outreach from the local area. It was only recently when I attended an alumnae event held at the school, and heard current teachers reassuring us that they still had that network of contacts in the local area, so that any local child showing promise would be offered a chance to sit for a scholarship that I realised that what they are actually doing is creaming off any child who would do well, improving their own stats at the expense of the local state schools.

So much less altruistic than I had originally imagined.

Nowadays, I much prefer societies in which the state provision is so, so good that no-one would really think twice about sending their own darlins anywhere else. A very different attitude which is bound to foster a more equal society.

Where in the world are the state provisions so good that they are irresistible? I'd like to go there, seriously.

The vast majority do the tiniest bit of outreach they can get away with to tick the box. I know this because I am in these schools all the time.

This chimes with my own anecdotal experience of 'outreach' from the private sector to my own kids' state primary - ours offers the use of their pool for a term a year of swimming to our Y4s. It must only ever be one lesson a week, it must be in winter, they reserve the right to cancel or change its availability at little to no notice if they decide they want or need it for something (the best was the cancellation when the kids had already walked most of the way there.) So yes, they provide the facilities which means the school doesn't have to find the money to hire a pools for the lessons. But it's always made very clear that their pupils will always take priority, even if it's a student reward swimming time, that the convenience to our school of last minute changes is not their concern, and that frankly our children should just be grateful they are getting anything at all. There's quite a nasty mid-Victorian tone to their exercise of their charitable purpose....

@bjmin - Switzerland, for example, has pretty good state schools in many cantons, so often even very rich parents choose the state option (which is however, largely, academically selective at secondary level). If you do away with grammar schools, you benefit the private system.

Private schools in UK have become insanely expensive in the last 20 years. That is a fact. So it is only natural that a government might potentially want part of the pie.

@Andante57 I already do but thank you for sharing the article others might want to do the same.

I also donate to my local schools , food bank and women's refuge they are all in dire straits at the moment. Shocking but that's where we are after twelve years of the Tories.

Perhaps you might want to forward the link to 10 Downing Street as I believe tax was avoided all perfectly legal of course) by the the occupants for years, perhaps they might want to atone.

That is a good example. Good schools. But any examples of countries that have populations larger than London?

Lettherebedelight · Today 12:36
@Andante57 I already do but thank you for sharing the article others might want to do the same.

You already pay more tax than you have to? In that case you didn’t make it clear as you said,
‘I would be happy to pay more tax after all a well educated society would benefit us all’.

I don’t think anyone reading that would infer that you do pay more tax than you have to, more that you would be happy to if taxes were raised.

I advise on vat as part of my job, although it is not the main part of my job. there have been loads of cases go through the courts already about whether a particular supply is exempt education or not, it is already not straightforward. Removing the exemption for a primary and secondary school only won’t be straightforward, you’ve got to define what a primary school and secondary school is for a start and most independents don’t fit neatly into those boxes. Also why should provision of education by other businesses thst are not schools continue to be free of vat if schools have to start charging vat? There are also a hell of a lot of disabled/sen children in independent schools paid for by local authorities- should they be charged vat as well?

wow, I didn't realize the Swiss day private schools cost on average £20,000 per year. (the Swiss boarding schools were breathtaking, even by UK standards of boarding fees). hmm, still looks pretty expensive.

www.helloswitzerland.ch/en/guides/international-versus-local-schools-switzerland/

Well you know now @Andante57, I know many others do also. Hopefully the next government will change the loophole for non Dom's along with their other proposals.

It will be a long two years though for the people in this country who are desperate.I think that the fact that these schools have produced 3 of the last 4 Prime Ministers and Chancellors is reason enough to question the education received there , the level of incompetence is embarrassing.

I say that as an former parent at Rishi Sunak's school.

German private schools perform roughly similarly to state schools, and the proportion of kids who attend them is roughly similar to the UK (a little higher in Germany.)

People who go for private schools largely do so because they want a faith school, or because the want a Montessori/Waldorf etc approach. The system varies from state to state but private schools tend to be much more affordable because of church funding/personal tax offsets/direct state funding (or a combination.) So there is also less of an element of social exclusivity as a selling point for most private schools.

Lettherebe - that’s great that you and many others you know pay more tax than you have to. Do you assign it to any particular sector or do you leave it up to the Treasury?

What made you dislike Winchester so much as presumably you liked it when you chose it for your ds?

Thanks, interesting. So German families send a bit more children to private schools proportionately. Do they also cost roughly £20k for private day schools?

Switzerland is an expensive country and the Swiss franc is particularly strong against the pound at the moment.
The state funding per pupil in Switzerland is much higher than in the UK in most cantons and the teachers are relatively well paid. Some state schools even offer a bilingual matura now and the IB. There is often no need for a rich Swiss parent to send their child to a private school. It is just a question of money. The quality in the state education system tends to be very good. Some people will still choose an alternative provision, like Steiner. Some Steiner schools will charge based on parental income, so some kids pay nothing and others pay quite a lot. It is a different ethos though, Steiner, no exams etc.
There are also some private schools that are simply there to help weaker students who can’t keep up in the selective state system where kids are managed out or asked regularly to repeat a school year. So some rich parents end up paying to avoid that.

Germany is interesting because the demand for private schools has been increasing. The state education system is very good, but some see it as rigid in certain states with a one size fits all approach.

I have friends who live in Basel, Switzerland. A few years back the local government noticed an increase in parents’ choosing private schools for their kids. After trying to understand the issue, they realised it was lack of English teaching or quality thereof which was causing this. So they upped the English provision in state schools (more lessons)( and some state secondaries started offering a bilingual programme to state pupils and even the IB. If your local government has enough money and power, things like that can be put into motion fairly quickly. So there is less demand for private schools. Powerful parents are also in local government and use state schools themselves. All of that is important if you want a functioning state system.

Wow, you are so right, Switzerland average cost of living is 39% more expensive than the UK. That's a lot! Not sure I can afford that despite their good state schools.

livingcost.org/cost/switzerland/united-kingdom#:~:text=The%20average%20cost%20of%20living,expensive%20countries%20in%20the%20world.