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Secondary education

Connect with other parents whose children are starting secondary school on this forum.

What senior schools manage out pupils

82 replies

Curioscat · 27/11/2022 10:38

I have seen some posts on the board about some senior schools managing out their students that don’t do well on GSCE’s. It would be useful to know which schools are known to do this if anyone could share?

OP posts:
shreddies · 01/12/2022 22:03

I know two London state schools that ask kids to leave at the end of year 12 if their marks aren't up to scratch. I find it pretty shocking to kick kids out at that point, where are they supposed to go?

Orders76 · 01/12/2022 22:21

Apart from the private schools which you really know what you're getting into.... I cannot believe Ofsted or state schools are looking at education as value for money. No education is wasted education and that additional year could be the one to break institutional poverty or lack of education. Sometimes the UK really makes me despair.

uk2020 · 01/12/2022 23:47

allfurcoatnoknickers · 01/12/2022 21:56

MCS and Oxford High School absolutely do this. I went to OHS and it happened to a friend of mine. They also managed out the daughter of a very well known family, her parents called the papers and there was a huge article about it in the Independent.

The new head of OHS was asked specifically on this recently and she claimed she would never do that.

TizerorFizz · 02/12/2022 09:09

@Orders76
Value for money is about offering an education where Dc actually succeed. A level courses should not be all that’s offered in a Bucks secondary modern (they call them all ability schools?) when there’s a huge grammar 6th form 5 miles away. Value for money is about ensuring DC get the education that’s right for them. It’s wasteful to have a vanity project 6th form teaching A levels only when you know most DC will get D snd E grades. The money should be used to offer alternatives. Or Dc go elsewhere where there is excellent provision.

allfurcoatnoknickers · 02/12/2022 15:46

@uk2020 Good. I hope she meant it. It was very ingrained in the culture.

Nat6999 · 03/12/2022 13:24

TigerorFizz they do a home visit & a meeting with the head for new Y7 pupils & gently hint to parents of pupils they don't think will be a good fit that they look at other schools.

TizerorFizz · 03/12/2022 18:21

So why hadn’t Sheffield Council stopped this? @Nat6999 It’s not legal. They surely know about it.

BackT · 04/12/2022 06:59

Brighton College will manage kids out at all stages if they aren't performing.

MarchingFrogs · 07/12/2022 12:25

Nat6999 · 01/12/2022 12:21

TigerorFizz yes the newish one beginning with M, they also have to sit an entrance exam & interview to get a place & the head has said there will not be any common rooms or anything social for sixth formers it will purely be academic study & anyone not meeting their standards will be out.

Six letters beginning with M? With a first entry to sixth form next September? Looking at the website, it very much sounds like the sixth form is a part of the main school, not a stand alone entity (references to pupils 'staying on' etc) , so the references to interviewing potential students are very interesting, vi's à vi's the Admissions Code.

1.9 It is for admission authorities to formulate their admission arrangements, but they must not:...
...interview children or parents. In the case of sixth form applications, a meeting may be held to discuss options and academic entry requirements for particular courses, but this meeting cannot form part of the decision making process on whether to offer a place. Boarding schools may interview children to assess their suitability for boarding.

Nat6999 · 07/12/2022 12:49

MarchingFrogs their entry requirements are already higher than any other school in Sheffield's Sixth form, does the fact they are an academy exempt them from being bound by the rules for interviewing pupils?

Theroadt · 29/01/2023 15:00

My child is at Kings Senior currently. I loved the Junior section (to the end of Y8) but the seniors is a jungle. There is no pastoral care, no added value, and some of the teaching is very below par. Too late to change now, but do not want child to stay in Sixth Form.

Morph22010 · 29/01/2023 15:08

A lot of Sen children get managed out of schools, both secondary and primary, most of the time they and the parents are treated badly until they eventually leave. Sen is a double whammy for schools as Sen children cost more money and on average get lower grades

WEEonline · 29/01/2023 23:53

Theroadt · 29/01/2023 15:00

My child is at Kings Senior currently. I loved the Junior section (to the end of Y8) but the seniors is a jungle. There is no pastoral care, no added value, and some of the teaching is very below par. Too late to change now, but do not want child to stay in Sixth Form.

Is this King’s Wimbledon or King’s Canterbury?

sailingsunshine · 30/01/2023 06:58

@WEEonline I think the poster means Kings Ely referred to earlier in the thread.

NCschoolpost · 30/01/2023 07:43

Theroadt · 29/01/2023 15:00

My child is at Kings Senior currently. I loved the Junior section (to the end of Y8) but the seniors is a jungle. There is no pastoral care, no added value, and some of the teaching is very below par. Too late to change now, but do not want child to stay in Sixth Form.

Yes, I’d say this is similar to our experience, Junior was good with some excellent teachers and more individual pastoral care. Senior is a terrible disappointment and too late to move by the time you realise!!
The entitlement and behaviour of some of the kids is shocking and it’s often enabled by staff. All talk on anti bullying, equality and inclusion but the reality is grim.

The state 6th forms in Cambridge are both very good. You are wise not to waste your money on King’s 6th form offering.

Theroadt · 30/01/2023 08:01

Kings Ely

Theroadt · 30/01/2023 08:26

I meant Kings Ely Senior

crossroad21 · 30/01/2023 12:51

Bourne grammar used to in the early 2000s
Several people who didn't get A: at GCSE made to move o local comp

Someone sued then 10y later not sure what policy is now

meditrina · 30/01/2023 13:09

Most schools have required grades for sixth form admission. That can be either specific grades in chosen subjects, or points total or a combination of both.

It should be published on the website

Flapjack1980 · 30/01/2023 15:02

I'm sorry this has been your experience of Kings Senior, ours has been nothing but positive. The staff are caring, they listen, we have no complaints at all, quite the opposite, we would highly recommend. I guess no one school is going to suit everyone.

WombatChocolate · 30/01/2023 19:19

People say their kids have been managed out, referring to different things.

Pretty much all schools have subject specific entry requirements. In some academic schools these can be pretty high. So a child with a 7 probably won’t be allowed to do Maths. Sometimes the family are very keen to do Maths, so might leave and go elsewhere to do it, and say they’ve been managed out. In actual fact, they might have been able to do all of the other subjects available.

So often, it’s about being able to do specific subjects, rather than pushed out altogether. Even some academic schools are now offering a few BTechs, so there is something available for all who take GCSEs at their school in the 6th Form. The lower achievers might not be offered A Levels but Brecon and then some of them will leave. It often isn’t that amicable, with either disagreements between parents and school spoken out, or parents not voicing it but feeling bitter and speaking of being managed out to other people.

The ‘managing out’ that happened at the end of yr12 when students achieved poor AS grades, and not being allowed to continue to A2 seems largely to have ended now that most schools don’t sit AS exams and if they do, the grades don’t count towards A Levels. Sometimes, if students do really poorly in yr12 and their likely grade is an E, some serious talking to might happen….advice, that continuing probably isn’t worth it, and suggestions of other options or possible courses that might be available elsewhere and more suitable. Is that being managed out? Is it just sensible advice?

I think that in academically selective schools, being at the bottom is always hard. Grades that might be considered good or average elsewhere can be seen as poor in the selective school. Sometimes the school pushes that view and sometimes the students or their families develop that view themselves. They can feel unsuccessful and unwelcome and managed out, even when actually they haven’t been.

I think schools are wary of managing out mid-course these days as it’s got such a bad press. Instead, they try to set very clear entry requirements and make them more transparent and clear so there are far less nasty surprises. Parents are told what the entry requirements are and given an indication if they are likely to be achieved or not. Meetings are held to discuss plans for the next stage and when a student hopes for something not seen to be in their best interests or where they won’t meet the entry requirements, that information is given and alternatives suggested. Some students are advised to have back-up course plans or to also consider other schools/colleges which might offer more suitable courses or offer lower entry requirements. Is this managing out? It can feel like it, and especially to those who struggle, even when the advice is good advice, it can be resented, however hard schools try.

I’d suggest that the fast pace of academic 6th Form, particularly in certain subjects, isn’t suited to those who perhaps have grade 6 at GCSE. If the class all have grades 8 and 9 and progress at a rapid pace, starting with a 6 really might not be a pleasant experience. Is it right or fair to that student or to the rest of the class to have a significant outlier in the class? That’s the question really. When there are very genuine reasons why someone has underperformed, schools might be a bit flexible. However, quite often it isn’t an underperformance, but achievement of what was expected.

So finally, I’d say that choosing a senior school, where you know from the start that your child is going to clearly be at the bottom and likely to struggle, isn’t a good choice. Sometimes parents don’t know this will be the case…but sometimes they do. It can be the case where there is a linked Prep that lets students progress to the senior school without doing an exam.

Postapocalypticcowgirl · 30/01/2023 21:48

The ‘managing out’ that happened at the end of yr12 when students achieved poor AS grades, and not being allowed to continue to A2 seems largely to have ended now that most schools don’t sit AS exams and if they do, the grades don’t count towards A Levels. Sometimes, if students do really poorly in yr12 and their likely grade is an E, some serious talking to might happen….advice, that continuing probably isn’t worth it, and suggestions of other options or possible courses that might be available elsewhere and more suitable. Is that being managed out? Is it just sensible advice?

Most schools I know do some kind of exam at the end of Y12 (usually AS papers) and often if students get Us, they are invited to resit or to consider their options. It's really in no-one's interest to allow a student to get to the end of Y13 on courses they aren't going to succeed on.

At the end of Y12, there is the option to switch to new courses and have a fresh start and hopefully be more successful. At the end of Y13, there is generally only really the option to resit the courses the student has already started (there can be specific exceptions to this) BUT resitting the year isn't a route to success at A-level if you've previously achieved e.g. EEU, or similar. Students might pull it up to C grades, maybe, but often not higher than that, which still gives them limited options for unis.

I honestly think any schools letting students go through to Y13, only to get D and E grades or worse at the end of it- when this was a reasonably predictable outcome- is doing the students a disservice. Yes, it might not be what they want to hear at that stage, but surely it's better to come up with a plan B than keep plugging away at a plan A that isn't working.

BTW anywhere sensible will have some kind of entry requirement for a Level 3 BTEC, although I guess at the sort of school you're talking about, something like 4s in English/Maths etc isn't really a common scenario.

WEEonline · 30/01/2023 23:14

Percentage of leavers at GCSE should be a good proxy. It’s been more than a few years ago since I checked, but from what I recall Trinity and Whitgift had loads of leavers at that stage, whereas Eton, Winchester and Sevenoaks had very few

Testina · 31/01/2023 09:12

I’m not sure on % of leavers, too many other reasons.

  • it’s not uncommon to save money with a 6th form switch to state
  • especially now!
  • some kids themselves are ready for a change
  • there’s a trend to try to game the system on state vs private university applicants

It’s certainly interesting to look at, but won’t tell the whole story.

WEEonline · 01/02/2023 00:27

Sure, but these factors affect all students yet the percentage of leavers at GCSE at some schools are higher then others. Agree that there could be regional variations, but for example Winchester has an excellent state 6th form, yet leavers at GCSE were in comparison.