Page 11 | 2023 Eleven Plus support thread

elevenduck · 2022-10-19T15:30:26+00:00

I thought it might be useful for parents of 2023 children taking the 11+ test next school year to have a space to talk everything 11+ - tips on managing stress, approaches to the different papers, ways of relaxing etc. Let's try and keep it positive and supportive!

Jellycats4life · 18/08/2023 18:13

In fairness to the school not inspected since 2011, AFAIK it’s still a great school. If it weren’t for the backlog I’m sure it would’ve been inspected already.

curiousmamma · 19/08/2023 09:33

The school we're aiming for also hasn't been inspected since 2011 either. I'm not too worried about it since it gets great results and has a great reputation.

I've given DD a bit of time off as we've been on holiday but I think we need to do a few little mocks over the next few weeks as it's getting close now.

How is everyone else doing with prep?

PettsWoodParadise · 19/08/2023 18:01

My daughter's school was one of those grammars that hadn't been inspected for years and everyone who wasn't part of it wanted it to have a bad result, but after an inspection about 18 months ago it got an outstanding (with bells and whistles). I know of many other grammars who haven't fared so well. If you go on this 11+ journey be prepared for lots of people to love to hate you.

PreplexJ · 19/08/2023 19:41

A state sixth form Newham Collegiate, most of its student from state comprehensive schools has achieved 80% A/A, and 97% A-B in 2023 A level. 188 students received at least three A* / A grades. The impressive result dwarfed a lot of grammar schools or selective indies even in London where most intake is via 11+.

https://sixthform.london/

Just a great example to demonstrate public exam results are more related to students abilities rather than the school been to at secondary level. The later stage the selection take place the higher correlation with the public exam results.

The NCS A Level Results 2023 - In Video

2023 A Level Results - 80% A*/A - 97% A*-B - One of the best sixth forms in London and the UK for student outcomes

https://sixthform.london

Ladybowes · 19/08/2023 21:26

PreplexJ · 19/08/2023 19:41

A state sixth form Newham Collegiate, most of its student from state comprehensive schools has achieved 80% A/A, and 97% A-B in 2023 A level. 188 students received at least three A* / A grades. The impressive result dwarfed a lot of grammar schools or selective indies even in London where most intake is via 11+.

https://sixthform.london/

Just a great example to demonstrate public exam results are more related to students abilities rather than the school been to at secondary level. The later stage the selection take place the higher correlation with the public exam results.

Not surprised they do so well - their entry requirements to do A levels are the same as many selective grammars! So many of these students might have been to grammar school and decided they wanted a different experience for A levels. They are basically creaming off the more able students just like selective grammars and independents

PreplexJ · 19/08/2023 21:32

Ladybowes · 19/08/2023 21:26

Not surprised they do so well - their entry requirements to do A levels are the same as many selective grammars! So many of these students might have been to grammar school and decided they wanted a different experience for A levels. They are basically creaming off the more able students just like selective grammars and independents

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Most of the students are not from Grammars nor private, normal comprehensive students who get good GCSE grades.

But yes their entry requirements is similar to many selective grammars yet their results are better than a lot of superselective grammars.

Jellycats4life · 19/08/2023 21:42

But yes their entry requirements is similar to many selective grammars yet their results are better than a lot of superselective grammars.

Good for them. Genuinely. But is there any surprise that an academically selective sixth form has such stellar results, no matter where their intake come from? Students who perform well at GCSE are likely to perform well at A Level 🤷‍♀️

Was there a reason why you plonked that in this particular thread?

Ladybowes · 19/08/2023 21:46

PreplexJ · 19/08/2023 21:32

Most of the students are not from Grammars nor private, normal comprehensive students who get good GCSE grades.

But yes their entry requirements is similar to many selective grammars yet their results are better than a lot of superselective grammars.

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No disrespect but your argument is nonsense.. you’re claiming that results are about ability rather the school they went or go to… that’s sort of the point of grammars?? Selection based on ability??

If you truly believe ability was the most important factor you could just send your child or children to any school it really wouldn’t matter. I don’t get your point particularly on this thread.

Original poster

elevenduck · 19/08/2023 21:52

Pertinently, in many (most?) grammar areas, true comprehensives aren't an option for most children, as we have Secondary Moderns. Not at all a cross-section of ability but a school with the top 30% of academically able (and/or ambitious and aspirational) stripped out, and a higher proportion of poverty and additional needs left behind.

I'll be properly impressed when a secondary modern outperforms a grammar.

OP posts:

PreplexJ · 19/08/2023 22:08

"you’re claiming that results are about ability rather the school they went or go to… that’s sort of the point of grammars?? Selection based on ability"

Yes public exam results at later stage of the children life are about ability rather the school they went or go to. But this is not the same point of attending grammar in mordern days (probably bar the heavy grammar areas) , which is a self-select process at early stage for some parents and children that thinking putting kids in a high attainment peer environment can magically boost their kids performance later on.

"If you truly believe ability was the most important factor you could just send your child or children to any school it really wouldn’t matter."

I do believe ability is the most important factor which is also back by a lot of renowned research. However I do think school does matter on a lot of other factors on the education experience than looking at academic achievement alone.

A lot of posters in this thread are torn and stressed by the 11+ exam prep, I think we shouldn't consider the outcome/choice the defining moment at this stage, clearly it is not.

Ladybowes · 19/08/2023 22:22

PreplexJ · 19/08/2023 22:08

"you’re claiming that results are about ability rather the school they went or go to… that’s sort of the point of grammars?? Selection based on ability"

Yes public exam results at later stage of the children life are about ability rather the school they went or go to. But this is not the same point of attending grammar in mordern days (probably bar the heavy grammar areas) , which is a self-select process at early stage for some parents and children that thinking putting kids in a high attainment peer environment can magically boost their kids performance later on.

"If you truly believe ability was the most important factor you could just send your child or children to any school it really wouldn’t matter."

I do believe ability is the most important factor which is also back by a lot of renowned research. However I do think school does matter on a lot of other factors on the education experience than looking at academic achievement alone.

A lot of posters in this thread are torn and stressed by the 11+ exam prep, I think we shouldn't consider the outcome/choice the defining moment at this stage, clearly it is not.

I see your point and yes I agree that ability is a big factor in outcome. However, as you say it’s not the only one. Personally I get rid of all different types of schools including private ones and have all children going to the nearest school to their home. But that’s not the world we live in.

We all know why people are keen on grammar schools, private and independents etc because of all the other factors that support a child in attaining a good outcome with their education- perhaps one the biggest being peer groups. We have all heard the stories of people getting opportunities because they went to school with so and so… life isn’t fair. Sadly for many they have to put themselves and their children through the 11 plus..

PreplexJ · 19/08/2023 22:30

"Sadly for many they have to put themselves and their children through the 11 plus.."

This is a support thread, my posts, with some evidences, just to provide those are in the process with some prospective. The 11 plus journey probably is more important than the targeting schools itself.

Ladybowes · 19/08/2023 22:43

PreplexJ · 19/08/2023 22:30

"Sadly for many they have to put themselves and their children through the 11 plus.."

This is a support thread, my posts, with some evidences, just to provide those are in the process with some prospective. The 11 plus journey probably is more important than the targeting schools itself.

I get it now but your original post didn’t come across as particularly supportive tbh. Probably best to have that kind of support once you know your dc hasn’t attained a high enough mark..

I more interested in how to support my child through the process. If he doesn’t get a high enough mark fair enough.

PreplexJ · 20/08/2023 00:22

"Probably best to have that kind of support once you know your dc hasn’t attained a high enough mark.."

I think this is kind of support is needed upfront for the parents rather than the DCs.

My DC had all the high mark including grammar and all selective schools offers applied. It was last year not this year though.

During the process and came across a lot of other mums, it is clear to me that the main motivations are driven from the eager parents who thinks succeeded in 11 plus is the only way, selective schools will offer so much more than no selective schools - better facilities, better teacher, better peer effects, I tried very hard but not able to find the hard evidence to back these pipe dreams. Yet many parents are able to embed such belief deeply to their DCs, those who get in will keep the illusions until later, those who failed the exam gloom and doom.

Taking time to reflect I think it is the parents need to manage their own expectation before their DCs. I feel the positive and important thing we have gained during the process is not about ending up to the school we like, not about learning curriculum ahead, not about mastering some exam technique, but really about DC learn how to appreciate taking the exam is not a measure of our worth or potential. It is just one of the many opportunities/options that we have in life to learn and grow. If one want to seize option, it will require dedication, time and efforts. The outcome is less important than process.

LimeCheesecake · 20/08/2023 07:29

There has been a discussion on this thread about the realistic alternatives for families feeling the 11+ isn’t a given for their dc, some like me are happy with the alternative, some are really not. This does depend on where you live and telling us in areas without the 11+ there are great comprehensive schools doesn’t help those of us who don’t live anywhere near those areas.

this is a 11+ support thread for those of us who are too close to secondary school applications for greater arguments about changing the systems to happen in time for our child.

perhaps they’ll be a rethink when the baby bust of the last 3 years starts heading towards secondary and the number of places in some towns need to be reduced dramatically. But mine will be through education and adults by then. It will be an interesting debate for me to join in rather than something that would actually matter to my family.

Ladybowes · 20/08/2023 09:27

PreplexJ · 20/08/2023 00:22

"Probably best to have that kind of support once you know your dc hasn’t attained a high enough mark.."

I think this is kind of support is needed upfront for the parents rather than the DCs.

My DC had all the high mark including grammar and all selective schools offers applied. It was last year not this year though.

During the process and came across a lot of other mums, it is clear to me that the main motivations are driven from the eager parents who thinks succeeded in 11 plus is the only way, selective schools will offer so much more than no selective schools - better facilities, better teacher, better peer effects, I tried very hard but not able to find the hard evidence to back these pipe dreams. Yet many parents are able to embed such belief deeply to their DCs, those who get in will keep the illusions until later, those who failed the exam gloom and doom.

Taking time to reflect I think it is the parents need to manage their own expectation before their DCs. I feel the positive and important thing we have gained during the process is not about ending up to the school we like, not about learning curriculum ahead, not about mastering some exam technique, but really about DC learn how to appreciate taking the exam is not a measure of our worth or potential. It is just one of the many opportunities/options that we have in life to learn and grow. If one want to seize option, it will require dedication, time and efforts. The outcome is less important than process.

Perhaps you're right but as I said it did not come across as supportive or helpful advice - I understand your intentions are good.

At this point in time I am more interested in tips - such as book and websites recommendations etc., rather than someone telling me don't worry this is all a waste of time anyway (which is effectively what you are saying) as outcomes are based on ability rather than the school your child goes to. I might be happy to hear that when my child does not get a high enough score - at this point it might be a comfort - but for now it feels slightly patronising.

Also I might be in different situation to many, I have an older child who is already in secondary not a grammar but the local comprehensive and I am more than happy for all my children to go there. So for us the 11 plus isn't the only way. If he gets in fine if not also fine - lucky for us no big deal either way.

Having said all that what you have written might be helpful for others.

Jellycats4life · 20/08/2023 11:49

At this point in time I am more interested in tips - such as book and websites recommendations etc., rather than someone telling me don't worry this is all a waste of time anyway (which is effectively what you are saying) as outcomes are based on ability rather than the school your child goes to.

Amen to that.

I get the impression that Preplex is always railing against grammars and pushy parents who will stop at nothing to get their kids into a grammar, because in their minds, anything other than a grammar is an abject failure and an embarrassment to them as parents. These people do exist - I’ve seen them on the 11+ forum.

But I don’t see them in this thread?

@PreplexJ You might also do well to recognise that many parents out there want their child to go to a grammar school, but not because they’re hoping for amazing exam results. I know that because I’m one of them 😉

LimeCheesecake · 20/08/2023 12:21

I want my child pushed. My eldest is at grammar already and while the curriculum is the same, the speed they go through it is much quicker, less time to get bored, less time waiting for other children to catch up, more time at year 11 to focus on revision / helping those who struggled on some areas. Also means they can do more GCSE subjects as they can give less time to each one and still cover all the work.

If dc1 was at the non-grammar I’m pretty sure he’d still get good grades. He would be doing 9 GCSEs not 11.

DC2 can also clearly cope with work being carried at a faster pace. She’d find similar kids at the grammar. She’d be in a much smaller school and I think that would suit her. We are lucky our plan B is a nice option.

PreplexJ · 20/08/2023 12:26

"At this point in time I am more interested in tips - such as book and websites recommendations etc., rather than someone telling me don't worry this is all a waste of time anyway"

Perhaps the last minute prep is a bit too late for 2023, I also contributed a few tips in this thread and related. I think at this stage some other prospective is more useful.

"These people do exist - I’ve seen them on the 11+ forum.

But I don’t see them in this thread?"

I would say rarely see those people self-identified as such in any forum or in public, why would they, and some of them even not realise themself. But when they talked not much things outside just league table, example results and how poor their kids academic will be when not ending up in grammar (including in this thread and a lot of MNs threads). You know the main motivations are.

Ladybowes · 20/08/2023 14:22

Perhaps the last minute prep is a bit too late for 2023, I also contributed a few tips in this thread and related. I think at this stage some other prospective is more useful.

Again not particularly helpful and somewhat patronising - you have no idea how long people have been preparing and what might be useful to people.

PreplexJ · 20/08/2023 15:24

Ladybowes · 20/08/2023 14:22

Perhaps the last minute prep is a bit too late for 2023, I also contributed a few tips in this thread and related. I think at this stage some other prospective is more useful.

Again not particularly helpful and somewhat patronising - you have no idea how long people have been preparing and what might be useful to people.

Yes, so based on this, any general advice would not be useful/helpful to people in the thread. Grammar schools area different, exam different, difficulty different, prepare length/schedule different.

But again I think in general grammar school exam start at Sept and finished at mid October, given the few weeks to go, any additional prep tips (books or website) - either started recently or prep long time ago is probably not had any pivotal effects.. What is more helpful in my opinion is prepare the mindset not be feeling patronising on everything.

Ladybowes · 20/08/2023 15:55

Yes, so based on this, any general advice would not be useful/helpful to people in the thread. Grammar schools area different, exam different, difficulty different, prepare length/schedule different.

This is so not true - I have found Atom learning to be so helpful and this was general advice offered by someone who isn't in the same area as me. So I disagree you with here.

Also I don't think you can judge most people's mindset from what you read on here...and I don't feel patronised on everything but your posts definitely come across like that..

Original poster

elevenduck · 20/08/2023 15:58

@PreplexJ I think we are at risk of derailing the purpose of this thread. I agree there's a debate to be had around the ethics and effectiveness of grammar schools, but I don't think this is the best place for it.

I set up this thread for parents/carers going through the 11+ process as a support thread. That can be anything from tips and methods through to "oh God, we've had a dreadful day" to "I'm feeling so nervous, anyone else around?"

It reminds me of the boarding school threads when everyone is so anxious to share their opinion that boarding is terrible, but doesn't help the OP who might have already made their mind up and just needs to know where to buy name labels! (NB not defending - or maligning - boarding here - just giving an example of how threads get derailed.)

OP posts:

PreplexJ · 20/08/2023 16:23

" I have found Atom learning to be so helpful and this was general advice offered by someone who isn't in the same area as me. So I disagree you with here."

This is similar to the generic advice of getting a tutor or doing a past papers for the 11+. Not specific to this thread I would say. At many occasions in MN I also mentioned Atom learning is useful for certain kind of test and prep too.

But now exams is coming, a general advice on - just chill, not be too stressful on the 11+ process , is not defining moment and even not going well/through the process according to your plan it doesn't mean much (with some number and actual evidence) then it is not OK and considered as derailing?

Back to my earlier point, some parents just take this over serious and the same believe/thought may be passing to their DCs.

Ladybowes · 20/08/2023 17:45

@PreplexJ I am not quite sure what you are attempting to achieve here but I have had enough and I am now going to stop engaging with you. As pp have said this is suppose to be a support thread and I feel that you are not being particularly supportive. So I am done - I am not feeding the troll anymore. Goodbye.