SW London Girls' Private & Grammar - applying for year 7 in 2023

[EmotiveBubblez]

i myself have been looking for this thread and have been unsuccessful. Saw a couple people mention it over the past day or so on the 2022 one.

so here we go, albeit a bit late.

has everyone visited all the schools on their lists?

how many schools are everyone applying to?

what schools are you applying to?

how is the preparation going?

i know some exams have taken place, how did they go?

wishing all the whirls good luck with preparation and exams, hope we all find the right schools for our daughters.

I would agree that they likely form part of the reference for the early stages and then may be used by prep school heads to advocate for children on waiting lists. Not sure that it's unfair as such. If cats were low then the child worked really hard for the exam then they could work the other way if on a waiting list.

At the end of the day it will be about the exam results on the day. A lot of the schools talk about ranking the children after the exam. I imagine this isn't so easy with English but more straightforward with the maths hence the papers are generally difficult. Gives them an opportunity to see who is good at maths and who excels.

I think exam performance is the key driver for progressing through admissions progress, with other factors playing a marginal role (depending on the school and, of course, exam results). Those other factors can range: extra-curricular prowess, CAT scores, KS results / predictions, male:female ratios, percentages from state schools, even siblings at the school. I doubt any of these factors can compensate for a significantly lower test result. But the schools have leeway to factor them somewhat as private entities: they can choose their own selection criteria and they all openly refer to school reports / references in their Comms (without being specific about the form it will take) and admissions policies.

As to whether fair or not, I always think that, like beauty, fairness is in the eye of the beholder.

Agreed. I think all they really care about is getting the kids who will get the best exam results.

@QuiteAJourney I know sibling is definitely ve+ how about state school? Is it ve+/ve-? Or is it different per school?

@PreplexJ As far as I am aware, it is depends on the school but state background is either neutral or positive when looking at exam results. In some of the visits, when asked, they said that they were neutral but in others they were quite clear that they were keen to increase representation and referred to aiming for equal representation.

@QuiteAJourney yes I think you're right re admissions.

@prag82 thanks for this. But how do they rank them?!!

Gcse and A level results. A-levels are given double weight. On the times website you can separate them by strictly gcse or a-levels

Ah great thanks

Our Head told us that quite a few secondaries don't even read the references and just purely go on the exam results / interview.

Apart from the fact that the state school heads will not be phoning up schools to advocate for their pupils on waitlists. So any advocacy is unfair.

But why not? If a state school primary head has a bright pupil with extenuating circumstances, or who they think maybe didn't perform their best on the day, what is stopping them phoning up Admissions and having that conversation? This idea that state school heads - particularly in London - are incapable of navigating anything around the 11+ system, or advocating for their pupils, is frankly insulting to state school teachers.

It has nothing to with lack of capability. State schools don’t prep their children for selective education be that state or private schools (unless maybe in Kent etc).

@LondonMum20222 it would be nice if the state school heads could do this! But if any are like my dd then they just don’t know anything about the 11+! I was seriously shocked. Our head was not able to give any advice or tell me anything about the 11+ I am not from the UK so I was hoping for a little guidance. But nope. I had to research and figure everything myself. I just hope the head is able to write a reference letter…..

I also hope that the private secondary schools take this into account, that perhaps some state school heads aren’t experts on what to write or the 11+ process.

The head wasn’t even able to give much guidance on what schools to aim for based on ability. She just gave a wide range from Godolphin to Queens Gate. I am really nervous, as we just don’t know. My dd is bright, exceeding in math, English and writing, but given state schools are behind British private schools, I have no idea her level compared to others. So we applied to a range and hoping for the best.

State schools don't have the capacity to do this sort of thing. Moreover, I don't think they would do it because it wouldn't be considered fair - the same reason that state schools are not allowed to interview.

I am not too worried about it as I very much doubt an independent secondary will take any notice of these appeals. They may give the veneer of listening so as to maintain good relations with the prep.

@Dallasdays I'm inclined to agree. At the end of the day they'll offer to those who've performed well and who are likely to accept the offer. I also think they're arranging these group session interviews in a bid to weed out those who don't behave well.

@Mamabear12 Hopefully by way of reassurance - we are at an indie prep and we were advised to look into a wide range too (mix of aspirational, realistic and back ups).

Similarly, our DD is at a non-selective prep that embraces diversity and with quite a few kids with SEN (a very conscious decision on our side, as we wanted an inclusive environment and not a hothouse) where she transferred in Y3, after a very negative experience in our local state. Still not clear where she would sit within the cohort of kids sitting exams for different schools. I was just clear that I would not tutor and that we were as interested in the pastoral dimension and our DD's scope for participating in extra-curricular activities, so that rule quite a few! (and also has placed as favourite a school that would not necessarily be considered as 'aspirational' but that, for us, has leapfrogged others more generally considered so).

More generally (meaning that I am not referring to your comments but more to some comments that might create a 'them' and 'us' feeling in a thread that I think is invaluable in providing each other with information, support and encouragement, I think that we are all trying to do our best for our kids with limited information and working within a system that is quite complex and multi-faceted (each kid is different, each selection process is different, etc). Imho, as stated above, 'fairness, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder'.

@Mamabear12 I'm sorry you don't think your head can help / advise. I do find it surprising that a London headteacher wouldn't have any views on selective or grammar schools. And I think it's highly unlikely they're not capable of writing a reference!

By way of reassurance, I think you'd probably be surprised by how little help / guidance prep school kids get (in my experience) as to which senior schools to apply to. Mostly it's left down to the parents to visit the schools / do the research / do the due diligence / decide what is a good fit for your child. They might advise on adding more back-up schools if they think you're being too aspirational, but that's pretty much it.

When we applied to private prep for our DD we had no experience - or any friends with any experience - of the private system. We researched it ourselves, and made judgement calls based on that research / visits / knowing our DD. I imagine, in the round, that's what 99% of parents do at 11+ too, whether state or private.

@Dallasdays I know quite a few Heads and Dep Heads in London state schools, and I think you do them a disservice to say that they don't have time / aren't capable of advising on secondaries or writing references. They're not incompetent. And the Heads / Dep Heads I know would absolutely support a child applying to a selective or grammar school at 11. Also, why wouldn't it be fair for them to write a reference for a child applying to an independent school? Unfair on whom?

Where did I say they weren't capable / were not competent to do it?!

The point about fairness is that it would be unfair on the children who are going into the state sector for state primary heads to do this. My headteacher is hardly going to call up Tiffin to advocate for a child who didn't pass stage 1? So it would be unfair for them to engage in this behaviour, and take up the time to do so, for the children that are going to independent secondary.

Anyway as noted I really don't think this is such a big issue in practice.

@Dallasdays You said they didn't have the capacity in response to chat about advising on senior schools and writing references - whether through time or competence, it wasn't clear. But either way I'm finding that hard to believe.

No one has said they aren’t capable.

Many Headteachers will send last year’s report as a reference. Not because they can’t write a reference but because it’s not their job and they have many other, frankly more important, things to do.