Headteacher meeting, awaiting diagnosis

[WitsHaveEnded]

I'll try and keep this as short as possible without missing anything.

DD 13, just gone into year 9. Horrendous year last year, constantly late to school, detentions, on report for 3/4 of the year, truanting lessons, not completing work, but generally well behaved (their words). Countless phone calls from the school during the day, meetings with the year head and deputy head. She is not even 2 weeks into year 9, has already been put in Inclusion, and they've called me 9 times. Yesterday they said that "there is a waiting list of girls wanting to get into this school and she clearly doesn't want to be here", and today I've been called while at work to be asked to come in Friday AM to meet with the headteacher. Meaning an unplanned day off work for me.

She has nothing. All devices have been taken off her, she is grounded. Absolutely nothing gets through to her. I am out of words and ways to explain how her behaviour is affecting her and me. I've talked calmly, screamed, shouted, cried. She has been in counselling, currently been waiting since January for ADHD assessment, school are aware of both things, yet I feel like they are trying to "off roll" her out of there without them ever putting any sort of behavioral plan in place or proactively trying to manage her behaviour in school. Everything just results in detention, or inclusion, which they've admitted don't work, or calling me for what seems like just a chance to complain about her being late to lessons. Other than me quitting work and volunteering to chaperone her to each lesson how do I manage that?

I've been told a behavioural plan can only be done with a diagnosis. Is this true? I was under the impression it wasn't needed. While in general I agree she is a nightmare, I am at a loss right now as to what more I should be doing than what I already am.

What questions should I be asking when I meet with the Head? I don't want to be steamrolled the minute I sit down.

Any advice for a very worn down Mum would be much appreciated 😪

I would also look at atypical ASD and PDA, girls can present so differently and problems often come to the fore in secondary. The behavioural strategies you are using absolutely won't work if it is PDA or she has PDA traits, in fact they will be counter-productive. The school do sound terrible by the way.

Oh OP - as someone with two children with SEN (ASD/ADHD/DCD) I found this very upsetting to read. Please repeat to yourself the mantra ‘children do well when they can’. When there are consistent issues like this there are usually root causes which are not bad behaviour or character deficits. The school is the issue here, not your child. They have made no attempt to differentiate their approach to identify why your child might be struggling. I would go in and out them on the back foot as they are failing and harming your daughter. It is clear - even without any diagnosis - that she needs support and they are refusing to provide it and punishing her for things that she may have no control over. Ask them how they are going to help her. If they refuse to budge I would seriously consider moving school.

I have ADHD completely unrecognised through childhood and was in a high pressure all girls school. My parents believed the schools narrative...that I was lazy, messy, disorganised and silly.. and punished me accordingly. Apparently if I wanted to and tried harder it would all go away.. I was left with crippling anxiety, low self esteem and a lifelong belief that unless I am 100% perfect then I am useless. No amount of therapy has managed to shift my deep seated feeling of inadequacy. I worked my arse of and achieved well to the outside world but the costs were too high. Please stop punishing your daughter... it sounds like she is giving up on herself. She needs you to have her back. My son has ADHD too, and the best thing I can do for him is say you are ok, you may find this hard, but I see you and I know how hard this is for you. It may not be ADHD, my daughter has dyspraxia and slow processing and presents with similar problems... her primary school nearly broke her by not recognising it and insisting she needed to try harder, until I stood up and said no... and pushed until we worked out what was going on. Good luck. The fact you are are asking how to challenge school is a massive step in the right direction...

Just home from the meeting.

As expected, they're trying to off roll her with a managed move to a school rated inadequate in every area in the last ofsted report 2 years ago. She had the form on her table. I refused, asked for my daughter to leave the room so as not to undermine them in front of her and basically told them they have failed her at every step. They have offered zero support, besides letting her go to a wellbeing class every 2 weeks. I mentioned the SENCOP etc, and that I feel they've given up on her. She had an answer for everything of course. But as soon as I mentioned off rolling her, she backed down and said let's give it 4 weeks and see if we can make some improvements, if so we'll rip the form up. She's moving her to a different Form away from the girl who attacked her last year as my daughter is entertaining her far too much because she's terrified of her.

She sat with her Classcharts print off showing how many negative points she has, brushed past the positive points. I'm left with a very bitter taste in my mouth and will be considering a different provision for my daughter. She deserves to be in an environment that encourages her and gives her confidence. Not one continuing to break her down and threaten her with a move to such a school if she doesn't kick her possibly ADHD brain into touch in 4 weeks.

Thank you all for your advice, definitely made me feel much more equipped to take them on.

Follow this with an email stating what was discussed and you expect to receive a copy of the support plan for the next four weeks (they have to send a copy of this to the local authority as well)

This isn't good enough. A managed move isn't off rolling but isn't the way to go either.

You might want to check out the school they want her to go to. If it was inadequate 2 years ago, it's likely had a massive injection of support and resources to bring it up to standard. It might be just what she needs - at least talk to the suggested school and ask what they would put in place for her.

@WitsHaveEnded
It is not necessarily true that Inadequate schools get money because schools have funds allocated based largely on pupil numbers and there isn’t a secret fund for extras. However, 2 years ago is quite a long time. I would be very tempted to look at their Ofsted reviews since then. What does Ofsted say about their progress? Have they become an academy? Do they have a new Head and SLT? What is their SEND policy? Can you find anyone with DC who go there to have a chat with them?

Inadequate schools do sometimes turn into intolerant schools though. You need to be very aware about this trait. Is their Behaviour Policy another rigid one? Sometimes these schools start excluding to make a fresh start (and signal change to parents). So have a look but do your homework.

They should assume the diagnosis even before it formally comes through, and should be putting in measures already.

The school is well known across the city we live in as being rough, think being in the local news for bullying multiple times etc. It has been turned into an Academy since last year and isn't due an Ofsted inspection for 30 months since then. I've had a look at their SEND policies etc, and I've also searched it on Facebook, a lot of screenshots of text messages from the school putting children on detentions even when they weren't in school that day! Hasn't filled me with confidence so far.

Her current school did say that it would be this particular school as they have taken one of their pupils on a managed move, so they're owed one so to speak.

DD is absolutely adamant she doesn't want to leave her current school, but I'm terrified of what the next 4 weeks will bring. Have also emailed the ADHD team asking for an urgent update and explaining the situation. Where is the gin 🥴

They can't do a managed move without your consent, regardless of whether they've taken one from the other school...

Please make sure you follow up the meeting with an email so that you establish a paper trail.

You might have a chink of light there with DD. She doesn’t want to leave her current school. This could then lead to better timekeeping. I can see she won’t necessarily be great at keeping up in lessons and maybe a set with more help in the class could assist? You said she had been put down a set. Maybe this isn’t all bad?

I can see why you are dreading the future but keep reinforcing the positive. She needs to try and cooperate. Personally I don’t think she should be on a managed move at all. She’s nowhere near being excluded as her behaviour isn’t bad enough. Maybe speak to the LA SEN dept?

Hi Op, well done getting through the meeting. I agree it would be worth talking to the LA SEND team or the parent advice team - usually SENDIASS. They will be interested to know what the school is suggesting with the managed move and be able to tell you what they think ought to be happening instead.

Your LA should have a managed move policy in their website - see if you can find it esp. with regard to SEND - there is probably specific provision for putting in extra support for SEND first. All schools have a SEN information report also, which should give further info on how they support SEN students

Definitely do what someone unthread suggested and email in to ask for a copy of the support plan they are putting in place !
Poor you OP, this sounds so stressful. Hope you get a chance to relax over the weekend x

It is indeed very stressful 🙃

The school don't really think they can offer much more support. They said a teacher sat with her to help answer questions and she just zoned out, they also said they don't have the resources to have someone helping her stay focused during her lesson transitions, I mentioned she struggled with unstructured times and was told "well last year she was made to each lunch with me and she doesn't want that again".

I'm unsure what the plan is moving forward for the next few weeks tbh. Kind of got rushed out towards the end as she had another meeting with the girl who attacked my daughter and her mum. My daughter being the second girl she had attacked with police involvement both times. No managed move for her.

I've had a response from the ADHD team saying she is now on the waiting list for a Neurodevelopmental history assessment? Any idea how long that usually takes?

Poor you and DD, OP, so exhausting. My DS has Inattentive ADHD and dyslexia, his school hasn’t been much better. It’s great for high achieving neurotypical kids but forget bright kids with additional needs. We’re looking to move him to a school where he can do vocational qualifications alongside GCSEs.

I know advocating for them is so hard - it’s clear you’re doing an excellent job for and with DD, give yourself some credit x

I apologies for not reading the whole thread but this lady is awesome in relation to ADHD. soli-lazarus.com/

It is probably best to ask them how long their waiting list is as it will be different in different trusts and also different pathways. I am more familiar with the ASC side of things though one of my dc is going to also be assessed for ADHD. A ND history assessment feels to me like an autism assessment - wiser people here may know.

I am wondering whether you could get in touch with your LA inclusion team. I mean, when you are looking at a managed move, a school is saying they can help no further, yet they can. They have a best endeavours duty as stated in SENCOP. IPSEA will explain this well. Do ask SENDIASS, they can contact the inclusion team for you. Inclusion team should then go to school saying why are you not supporting this child.

I wouldnt agree to a managed moved. If the issue us adhd, it doesnt disappear in a new setting and if the other maintained school can handle adhd then there is no reason why her current one cant. The other school will have all the same funding, timetable etc contraints.

Has she had an EP assessment? Its just things like maintaning focus doesnt just come from having someone sat with you. Lots of children with adhd have rubbish working memory so need their work instructions chunked down, and literally on the desk in front of them because by the time they've looked down from the board they have forgotton what it said.

Solidarity OP!
it’s heartbreaking to hear your child described as lazy/ not making an effort when they try so hard all day to fit in at school- it can be exhausting for them just to get through the day. I found the Additude podcast helpful (they have an episode on school meetings- you’ve done the right thing but it’s important to follow up in detail and not let them change the narrative).
Wishing you lots of luck and hopefully there are at least one or two teachers who ‘get’ your daughter and help her confidence (we’ve been lucky that despite a horrendous experience with the head of year my DS had a lovely form tutor who had his back).

In addition, you should be asked to express a preference for a managed move school. They don’t just tell you., That doesn’t mean your DD would get that school, but they are trying to railroad you.

Also - sorry about another post! Is she at risk of permanent exclusion? This is the criteria for a managed move. If so, what would be the criteria for permanent exclusion? Unmet SEN is not an acceptable reason. Has she ever been excluded? Not completing work isn’t a reason for permanent exclusion or being late for lessons. I would look up the rules around exclusions and managed moves. The current school must be prepared to take her back too.

I am going to sound a note of caution here.
I have worked in many schools and seen many managed moves. I have never seen a school select a pupil for a managed move who
Is often late
Struggles to complete work

I have seen managed moves for kids who
Refuse to work
Disrupt others while not doing their work
Refuse to follow teachers instructions
Truant on site with others and are defiant with staff

I think you are in danger of shooting the messenger. It would be easier to believe they have it in for her and don't want to help a struggling girl who may have additional needs. This is very unlikely. Getting rid of anyone is very tough. They would not waste their managed move on someone who missed lessons and didn't complete much work. There is a lot missing or glossed over here. You need to be honest with yourself if not on here.

Managed moves are increasingly being used for a number of reasons other than at risk of permanent exclusion. Check their policy.

Contact the inclusion team at your local authority. Be honest with them what the problems are. There are various teams within this team who can advise school on strategies, even if there is an ongoing behaviour issue bigger than being late and disorganised.

School can ask for an EP assessment if they haven't already done so. There is also LBAT (I think some local authorities may use different acronyms) they are behaviour advisers for schools.

You also may find it helpful to post on the SEN board as they all have lots of experience.

Their policy on managed moves should not differ from legislation. The LA should be clear when a managed move can be brokered. It’s not up to a school to make it’s own policy up.