JAGS and Alleyns Oxbridge

[WomanInWindow]

I noticed in one of the league tables that for both these schools, the number of applications made to Oxbridge was very low (20-40) considering the number of students and compared to other top academically selective schools. Is it because the students are discouraged from applying if they're not considered up to standard? For example, Dulwich College had 100 applications. I was wondering if anyone had any insights into this.

Comparing a girls school to a boys school isn't hugely helpful, especially as Dulwich has nearly twice the number of students.

If you look at the destination of JAGS 6th form, it includes Art colleges, like St Martins and music conservatories like Royal Academy of Music. These places surpass Oxbridge for their fields.

Using the Dulwich example, JAGS has a better acceptance rate and about the same acceptance rate as Eton College. I' ve never heard of any private school discouraging a student who wanted to study at Oxbridge, (whose capable) the opposite in fact.

I've only seen this at state schools sadly, discouraging students applying to Oxbridge.

Dulwich College is much bigger - the 6th form is 2.5 times larger than at JAGs and also much larger than Alleyns.

JAGs and Alleyns send about 15-20% of its pupils to Oxbridge in a given year which is line with with similarly academically selective schools. DC sends less than 10% of its students to Oxbridge so looking at the raw application numbers doesn't tell you anything meaningful and I'm surprised its part of any league table being published.

@SouthLondonMommy

Dulwich College is much bigger - the 6th form is 2.5 times larger than at JAGs and also much larger than Alleyns.

JAGs and Alleyns send about 15-20% of its pupils to Oxbridge in a given year which is line with with similarly academically selective schools. DC sends less than 10% of its students to Oxbridge so looking at the raw application numbers doesn't tell you anything meaningful and I'm surprised its part of any league table being published.

Is that correct? JAGS website for 2021 leavers lists 4 with offers to oxbridge. So if this is 15% of their total year group, that would make the year group only 27? Maybe it was an off year for them.

www.keystonetutors.com/news/oxbridge-which-schools-get-the-most-offers#

According to this table, JAGS & Alleyn’s over 30% of those who applied to Oxbridge received offer. This is similar to Eton and the majority of the schools listed in the table.
Westminster and a handful of other have around 50% offers.

The table poorly represents the date, listing the schools in descending order of actual number of offers rather than % offers. So whilst JAGS is 99th in the table, its offer % is higher than DC, which is higher up in the table.

Other factors to consider is which subjects the pupils are applying to read at Oxbridge. E.g. if you want to do medicine then Oxbridge is not the place to go.
Ma
However, overall, we are talking small numbers of pupils and so it’s splitting hairs.

Apologies for random typos

Yes, percentage accepted is similar, but if you look at the number of applications made (20-40) to the cohort size (150) this looks quite small compared to other similarly academically selective schools.

I don’t know the 6th form cohort size for either JAGS or Alleyn’s - is it really that big?
Either way, that’s where the course applied for becomes relevant - Oxbridge is not necessarily the best place to study some subjects.

@WomanInWindow

Yes, percentage accepted is similar, but if you look at the number of applications made (20-40) to the cohort size (150) this looks quite small compared to other similarly academically selective schools.

@WomanInWindow

You have to look at average over a few years for anything meaningful. Tatler school guide has JAGS at 20% Oxbridge, this is going to go up or down in any individual year.

Further, I think JAGS is much more artsy school, similar to UCS boys, in that its one of the oldest schools in London, selective, but has always had a artistic slant.

If you want a Oxbridge strong school, send your DD to SPGS, or the Hammersmith schools, Westminster 6th form.

JAGS (to me) doesn't come to mind in churning out Oxbridge grads, rather independent minded young women.

That league table shows that 96 girls from SPGS applied to Oxbridge, while only 27 did from JAGS. That seems to be more than just year on year variation and points to something quite different about these schools. It just surprises me how big that difference seems to be. I thought they were both highly academically selective schools.

@WomanInWindow

That league table shows that 96 girls from SPGS applied to Oxbridge, while only 27 did from JAGS. That seems to be more than just year on year variation and points to something quite different about these schools. It just surprises me how big that difference seems to be. I thought they were both highly academically selective schools.

Below is the latest rankings of SPGS vs JAGS, (as per Times 2022) why on Earth does it surprise you comparing the number one school (In the country) to the one ranked 27th?? OF COURSE there's something different about the schools!!! Am I missing something in your query? JAGS is an excellent school, but comparing it to SPGS is meaningless other than to illustrate SPGS as the 'good as it gets' bar for Oxbridge entry.

1 St Paul's Girls' School London Girls
2 King's College School, Wimbledon Wimbledon BoysMixed
3 Wycombe Abbey School High Wycombe Girls
4 Magdalen College School Oxford BoysMixed
5 Guildford High School GuildfordGirls
6 St Paul's School London Boys
7 Westminster School Westminster BoysMixed
8= Brighton College Brighton Boys Girls
8= City of London School for Girls London Girls
10 Sevenoaks School Sevenoaks Boys Girls
11 Eton College Windsor Boys
12 The Godolphin and Latymer School London Girls
13 Haberdashers' Girls' School Elstree Girls
14 North London Collegiate School Girls
15 The Perse School Cambridge Boys Girls
16 The Haberdashers' Aske's Boys' School Elstree Boys
17 St Mary's School Ascot Ascot Girls
18 Lady Eleanor Holles London Girls
19 King Edward VI High School for Girls Birmingham Girls
20 Royal Grammar School, Guildford GuildfordBoys
21 Concord College Shrewsbury Girls
22 Hampton School Hampton Boys
23 Winchester College Winchester Boys
24 Withington Girls' School Manchester Girls
25 Wimbledon High School GDST Wimbledon Girls
26 Putney High School GDST Putney Girls
27 James Allen's Girls' School London

interesting stats on here.

Jags and Alleyns are smaller. Anecdotally I think Jags gets smaller at sixth form as many leave to go co ed, while DC and Alleyns get bigger.

Have no personal insight into Jags but would say that DC are really pro Oxbridge. they identify bright kids (and that includes non scholarship kids) in Y11/12 and give them guidance and extra lessons if they're interested in having a go. The emphasis is on having nothing to lose by trying rather than on it being a disaster if it doesn't come off?

What is different about the schools is that SPGS is taking (say) the top 0.01% by academic ability, JAGS etc might be taking the top 1% - but SPGS have already preselected their pupils to be the ones with the highest oxbridge potential. So of course they have more pupils going there.

If your child has Oxbridge potential they will do just as well at either.

@365sleepstogo

www.keystonetutors.com/news/oxbridge-which-schools-get-the-most-offers#

According to this table, JAGS & Alleyn’s over 30% of those who applied to Oxbridge received offer. This is similar to Eton and the majority of the schools listed in the table.
Westminster and a handful of other have around 50% offers.

The table poorly represents the date, listing the schools in descending order of actual number of offers rather than % offers. So whilst JAGS is 99th in the table, its offer % is higher than DC, which is higher up in the table.

Other factors to consider is which subjects the pupils are applying to read at Oxbridge. E.g. if you want to do medicine then Oxbridge is not the place to go.
Ma
However, overall, we are talking small numbers of pupils and so it’s splitting hairs.

@365sleepstogo Oxbridge is a great place to read medicine especially if seeking entry into top training programmes which value early publications and conferences.

I don’t think it’s as simple as that, though. Look at the number of applicants for NLCS, Tiffin, Brighton College, The Perse School, Henrietta Barnet, Winchester, etc, for example. These schools all have number of Oxbridge applicants far higher than Alleyns or JAGS for it to be explained by students being more “arty” or that SPGS is clearly number one. There must be something else going on.

@WomanInWindow

I don’t think it’s as simple as that, though. Look at the number of applicants for NLCS, Tiffin, Brighton College, The Perse School, Henrietta Barnet, Winchester, etc, for example. These schools all have number of Oxbridge applicants far higher than Alleyns or JAGS for it to be explained by students being more “arty” or that SPGS is clearly number one. There must be something else going on.

I don't understand your query.

You quote schools higher in the league tables than JAGS and wonder why they have more kids going to Oxbridge, why do you think??

Tiffins and Henrietta are the top 4 state schools in the UK for goodness sake. The other privates all rank higher than JAGS.

The 'something else' going on , is that these are more competitive schools , perceived as 'harder' to get into and these schools can afford to choose more academic girls than JAGS. That's the difference.

The differences reflect their ranking , but these in themselves aren't huge. If Oxbridge entry means a lot to you, you should concentrate your selection on the top 10 schools private and top 10 state, and hope you're child is bright enough, rather than wondering why all private schools aren't exactly the same.

@strawberryband I think OP asks a very fair question. Schools below Jags in ranking (some names she’s mentioned above) have more Oxbridge applicants than Jags and Alleyns. Getting in is a completely different matter and helps with a highly academic intake but OP is asking about applications. I wonder why the girls are not applying.

Having gone through the 13+ process, the cat scores are a good way to go for/avoid certain schools, so I wonder if something similar goes on in sixth forms in terms of an automatic selection.

“@365sleepstogo Oxbridge is a great place to read medicine especially if seeking entry into top training programmes which value early publications and conferences.”

It really doesn’t confer any advantage at all.
Unlike many other degrees, medical schools have to fulfil certain requirements as outlined by the regional school and GMC - all doctors have to be trained, at both undergraduate and postgraduate levels, to certain standards and have evidence to support this.
The training becomes more diverse during postgraduate years as different trusts may provide differing highly specialised services that a doctor may wish to train in. Doctors move regions and countries for training.

When applying for training posts there is scoring system that is points based and the university you went to doesn’t get a point at all.
Research/presentations generally has a couple of points allocated and it doesn’t differentiate between a PhD and your name on the odd paper.

Everyone goes to conferences- it’s a requirement and there is study leave and funding for this for doctors - more for non-consultant grades (junior doctors in old money) than consultants.

In some specialties it is common to take time out to do a PhD (during specialist registrar training - in old money terms) but, again,
the vast majority of hospital doctors didn’t qualify from Oxbridge but undertaking a PhD or masters is not uncommon.

Anyway, I digress - sorry OP!

[quote DPLMom]@strawberryband I think OP asks a very fair question. Schools below Jags in ranking (some names she’s mentioned above) have more Oxbridge applicants than Jags and Alleyns. Getting in is a completely different matter and helps with a highly academic intake but OP is asking about applications. I wonder why the girls are not applying.

Having gone through the 13+ process, the cat scores are a good way to go for/avoid certain schools, so I wonder if something similar goes on in sixth forms in terms of an automatic selection.[/quote]
There are many factors at play here.

Jags is an all through school, girls coming in at 4+ who stay till 18, and as common with many all through girls, at 16 some girls go off to mixed 6th form. Comparing to a grammar like say Tiffin that has massive oversubscription at 11+ entry and regarded as top 10 and importantly has no fees, doesn't make much sense to me. Similar to Perse school, it's in Cambridge, so no surprise on its Oxbridge number.

It would make more sense to compare the stats of JAGS with schools like Putney and Wimbledon High School. Allens with Bancrofts or Highgate. i.e like for like.

I went to JAGS. They massively discouraged us from applying to oxbridge, and I would go as far as to say sabotaged applications (an extreme claim I know!). They relied on students doing well intrinsically having been academically selected on admission, and thought their job was more to “bring the girls down a peg or two” rather than help us to achieve. I understand there is now a new headmistress, so perhaps things are better, but if numbers of applications are still similar then I would wager they are not.

@strawberryband Well, comparing Alleyn's to Highgate as you suggest, Highgate had 92 applicants and Alleyns had 39.

I had the impression both these Dulwich schools were very competitive to get into so it does surprise me to see the profile of their cohorts seemingly quite different to other top London selective schools.

@DrPrincessFluffyToYou This is bizarre though. Why would they discourage you? Isn't it in their interests as well?

@365sleepstogo I'm guessing you went to Imperial...

I'm well aware how the entry to training works but I appreciate you outlining it anyway because I know most people are not. It's just a fact that the most desirable foundation programme places are in certain locations, and so are certain jobs in training. And very, very, very often, who do you find in those jobs? ...Oxbridge doctors.

Put it down to what you will.

[quote WomanInWindow]@strawberryband Well, comparing Alleyn's to Highgate as you suggest, Highgate had 92 applicants and Alleyns had 39.

I had the impression both these Dulwich schools were very competitive to get into so it does surprise me to see the profile of their cohorts seemingly quite different to other top London selective schools.

@DrPrincessFluffyToYou This is bizarre though. Why would they discourage you? Isn't it in their interests as well?[/quote]
If a school enters 92 applicants and only gets 28 offers, why is this a good thing??

Alleyns may only send down 39, but it has a better acceptance rate than Highgate, 36% compared to 30%.

Alleyns have a superior acceptance rate better than Eton, Kings, Perse , Tiffin, Brighton, NLCS and City of London School for Girls.

If I'm choosing a prep I don't care if the school sends 100's of kids to a particular senior school for 11+, I want to know how many are actually getting offers.

But @WomanInWindow ultimately its up to you what you do with these wonderful stats- is it important that large numbers of 6th formers apply? Or is it important the percentages that are getting offers? For me it's the percentage getting offers.

@WomanInWindow looking at how many apply without taking into account the size of the sixth forms or the overall acceptance rate of the student body is a odd stat to focus on.

Highgate's sixth form is 30% larger than Alleyns and they send a similar proportion of their total students to Oxbridge.

That some schools have more student that apply but with a lower acceptance rate would suggest some students are not getting proper guidance if anything.

“ @365sleepstogo I'm guessing you went to Imperial...”

Not a medic, in HR or have ever been an employee of Imperial but I am not going to say anything more than that

@DrPrincessFluffyToYou - that is quite bizarre and doesn’t make sense to me, it’s self sabotage by JAGS if they do that. However, I won’t argue against your personal experience. When did you leave the school?
I know alumni who left in the last decade and they didn’t have that experience.

@WomanInWindow - if Highgate et al had a larger number of applicants without increased rates of success then it seems to me that there are lots of students who apply that are not suitable for Oxbridge. Is that poor guidance from the schools who are trying to boost their Oxbridge applicant numbers?
How many Y13 students are there at these school? Is there anywhere we can find this data online?

JAGS/Alleyn’s are committed to their 4+ and 7+ intake with no-one weeded out at the 11+ level. This will lead to seemingly lower results compared with schools that take children at only 13+ who have been extensively coached and tutored such that they are working at GCSE level in Y7/8.
That’s absolutely fine if it suits your child and family.

Interpreting league table data needs critical thinking and once that is applied then you would see that the differences are minuscule.

@ConfusedaboutSchool According to the Good Schools Guide, Highgate's 6th form size is 379, while Alleyn's is 314. So Highgate's size is 21% bigger. Highgate had 92 applicants and Alleyn's had 28. So the Oxbridge application rates are 49% and 18%, respectively. So it still doesn't make sense to me, unless discouragement is going on, as per @DrPrincessFluffyToYou anecdote, more able students moving elsewhere for 6th form, or simply a different cohort profile.