JAGS and Alleyns Oxbridge

[WomanInWindow]

I noticed in one of the league tables that for both these schools, the number of applications made to Oxbridge was very low (20-40) considering the number of students and compared to other top academically selective schools. Is it because the students are discouraged from applying if they're not considered up to standard? For example, Dulwich College had 100 applications. I was wondering if anyone had any insights into this.

Sorry, Alleyn's had 39 applicant's, so its application rate was 25%. Still only half Highgate's.

@WomanInWindow

Sorry, Alleyn's had 39 applicant's, so its application rate was 25%. Still only half Highgate's.

Then the next step would be to find out which subjects pupils apply to read at university & at which universities; not to assume that they are being discouraged from applying to Oxbridge.

School league tables very definitely have their uses, but you really get the most of them when comparing apples with apples [e.g. Maths & English GCSE results at two non-selective comprehensives in two different parts of the country which have near-identical demographics].

'Oxbridge applications' or even Oxbridge admissions per pupil etc, is a pretty flaky stat because it doesn't control for a number of other factors, some of which are alluded to earlier in this thread (including differences in entry requirements, differences in the courses applied for, etc).

That a school like Eton makes an Oxbridge application for near enough every last one of its pupils is sort of taking the piss given how weak the worst of those applications are at the margins, but it's I suppose rational in the current grade-inflated climate, with so many tens of thousands of pupils nationally meeting the Oxbridge minimum standard every year.

It wouldn't surprise me if there's a move to a better, hopefully fairer and more transparent, means of 18+ assessment & uni application etc before too many years have passed.

Eton doesnt do that,but never mind

@nolanscrack

Eton doesnt do that,but never mind

No?

The stats that come out every now & then seem to consistently show c 200 applications per year from Eton [e.g. see this article - 208 applications in I suppose 2020 (it's a little unclear which year this'd be for entry in) www.spectator.co.uk/article/the-oxbridge-files].

How many sixth form leavers does Eton have every year? Must be 200 and something, right? The data on their website on A level & pre-U results shows 800-odd passes in total in 2020 (www.etoncollege.com/inside-the-classroom/exam-results/) ... assuming an average of 3.0 exams per entrant that'd imply about 70-75% applying to Oxbridge, if it's more like 3.5 exams per entrant you'd be closer to 85%, if 4.0 95%, etc - was it so wrong for me to say that "near enough" all kids there apply?

I think youll find that those figures in the Spectator might combine in year and gap year applications,certainly I had one that got in on the 2020 cycle and the number of boys that I know that didnt apply in year doesnt tie in with 208 in year applications..
Lots wait and see what exams results they got and then apply...gap years are very popular

According to the Good Schools Guide again, Eton has 540 in sixth form, so assuming 270 leavers and 208 applications, the Oxbridge application rate is 77%, much higher than Alleyn's 25%. @nolanscrack you make a good point about gap years, but again that begs the question whether gap years are far more popular in Eton and elsewhere.

Re Eton, for the coming year Eton have advised current lower 6th applicants need to have 11 x grade 9's and be taking 4 A levels to consider Oxbridge. The school has received around 48 offers this year for the cohort due to take their A levels this summer.

Let it go and have a glass of wine or something I'd say.

Isn't it arguably the sign of a good school to encourage pupils to apply for the right university for them, rather than just hurling them all at Oxbridge? It's not even just about whether a student is bright enough or 'good' enough - it's whether the course, the atmosphere, the college system, the teaching style suits that student. I wouldn't be judging a school on the percentage of pupils who apply - I'd be looking more holistically at leaver destinations. And if you're asking the question because you're looking at future schools for your kids (I don't think you said), then I would say that you're putting a disproportionate emphasis on Oxbridge entry in relation to a child who's probably still under 10.

@WomanInWindow I left in 2013. You're right - it was self sabotage of the school and I never really understood it myself. I rationalised it as they only really cared about %A/A* in GCSE and A level - people didn't seem to really judge schools based on %going to Oxbridge. The teachers honestly and truly did seem to actively want us to do less well sometimes. We didn't even finish the syllabus for our A level Biology / Chemistry, let alone go home for the holidays with revision guides made by the school as friends at City / SPGS did.

That being said, these things do come out in the wash (I ended up at medical school successfully), but this was very much despite the school rather than because of it.

Oh, and @365sleepstogo, the vast majority of my year group had not come from JAPS. Additionally, I know of several students who were in my sister's year at JAPS who were denied a place at JAGS. I do not think this is the reason for poor Oxbridge results, personally (although my experience is obviously almost 10 years old!).

Yes, I know they managed out pupils in the past at the 11+ transition point but the school policy changed about 5 years ago with the change in head.

@WomanInWindow

I noticed in one of the league tables that for both these schools, the number of applications made to Oxbridge was very low (20-40) considering the number of students and compared to other top academically selective schools. Is it because the students are discouraged from applying if they're not considered up to standard? For example, Dulwich College had 100 applications. I was wondering if anyone had any insights into this.

Excellent observation @WomanInWindow The reason that is the case is because the students at JAGS & Allen's are not as academically gifted so unfortunately fewer of them apply to the best universities.

@DrPrincessFluffyToYou

I went to JAGS. They massively discouraged us from applying to oxbridge, and I would go as far as to say sabotaged applications (an extreme claim I know!). They relied on students doing well intrinsically having been academically selected on admission, and thought their job was more to “bring the girls down a peg or two” rather than help us to achieve. I understand there is now a new headmistress, so perhaps things are better, but if numbers of applications are still similar then I would wager they are not.

Goodness. My daughter was at JAGS for the sixth form and I don't recognise the school from this post. She wasn't Oxbridge material so I can't comment on that side of things but she absolutely wasn't brought down a peg or two, quite the contrary, which was what she needed. We were hugely impressed by the school and the head. This was quite a number of years ago now, but I'd be surprised if it's changed that much.

@DrPrincessFluffyToYou

I went to JAGS. They massively discouraged us from applying to oxbridge, and I would go as far as to say sabotaged applications (an extreme claim I know!). They relied on students doing well intrinsically having been academically selected on admission, and thought their job was more to “bring the girls down a peg or two” rather than help us to achieve. I understand there is now a new headmistress, so perhaps things are better, but if numbers of applications are still similar then I would wager they are not.

Thanks for sharing @DrPrincessFluffyToYou That is very consistent with what several recent graduates told us as well at JAGS

www.jags.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/01/University-Places-2021.pdf

This shows where everyone from Jags went, I’d say they’re all pretty good even if the minority are at Oxbridge

@WomanInWindow one small point I would make is the likes of Eton and Winchester are down the list there - but latterly those who can afford it may choose a US university so possibly fewer applications to Oxbridge. Also I agree with others who say Oxbridge is not necessarily the best for every subject - so e.g. good at drama / acting would you choose RADA or e.g. Oxbridge. (one example ) Maths is another. I am not sure throwing all your pupils at the wall of Oxbridge and hoping a few them stick is the right idea .

In my view a school who knows its pupils will think carefully about advice where to apply. To discourage a pupil for applying somewhere if they are determined - no just no . But a reasoned discussion about where to apply could be OK given some good experienced advice re subject etc & where is either an optimistic choice or a very good clear choice given the DC's capabilities. ( I dismiss taking down a peg or two - don't agree with that. )

@BasiliskStare There is no drama degree at Oxford or Cambridge.

Wow lol. Funny to see the slightly aggressive replies on this thread. Most seemed to have not adequately understood the OP's question, to me it seems a very logical question, one I have thought about myself.

Why are the % number of applications low? To me, looking at % acceptances is misleading if for some reason, a large proportion are not applying. You can't tout the acceptance rate on one hand to say a school is superior for Oxbridge, and in the next breath waive away the question saying its because Oxbridge isn't the best for certain disciplines. That is inconsistent. Which is what the OP is querying. There is no judgement inherent in that question.

@WomanInWindow have you tried asking the schools themselves?

@Innocenta - fair point - in fact I knew someone who turned down a place at Oxford for Rada - You do right to correct me

In terms of admissions, JAGS isn't very academically selective at all. At the margin it's almost certainly easier to get into than a local grammar school [i.e. a regular one, not a superselective]. In this context their Oxbridge numbers look very respectable to me.

@puffyisgood JAGs is far academically selective (in terms of cohort not application numbers) than an average grammar school.

JAGS results: over 32% of A levels are A and 91% are A/A/B

Pates Grammar school: 31% of A levels are A over 92% are A/A/B

It hard to argue that Pates isn't a super selective grammar school given its the 6th best performing grammar school in the country and the results are comparable.

Those are results, with triple the teaching budget per head, rather than entry requirements. In terms of entrance, I'm sure we have all met girls who've got into JAGS but who wouldn't have a prayer of passing an 11+.

@puffyisgood I disagree. While I think there is value add in the resources that private schools have compared to state schools, I think UCL has measured it to be something like half a grade on average. It is hard to get in to JAGs and the school achieves those A-level results even though a number of the brightest girls leave for Westminster for 6th form.

I live locally and wouldn't personally choose JAGs but the girls are very academically strong and they weed out those who can't keep up.