JAGS and Alleyns Oxbridge

[WomanInWindow]

I noticed in one of the league tables that for both these schools, the number of applications made to Oxbridge was very low (20-40) considering the number of students and compared to other top academically selective schools. Is it because the students are discouraged from applying if they're not considered up to standard? For example, Dulwich College had 100 applications. I was wondering if anyone had any insights into this.

All a lot of heresay!
A third of JAGS y7 intake is made up form girls from the prep, the vast majority of whom started at age 4 and all have a place at the senior school. None have to pass the 11+ for entry and so are not prepped and tutored for years for the exams but continue with normal curricular and extra curricular subjects. They are not given any 11+ prep over the preceding summer holidays or Oct half term. There is no stress for parents and, most importantly, for the girls at this level.

From the op’s list (what I think is the original source) the ratio of applicants:offers doesn’t vary that much for most independent schools. So it must reflect intake.
The top schools mostly select at 11/13 or actively weed our junior kids. Alleyn’s doesnt (don’t know about jags) so that is probably the difference. It’s not that they’re much less selective at 11, or don’t teach them, it’s that half the kids were selected when it’s less reliable (because you really can’t judge a 3 year old…)

For me, a key point is that all these schools have decent numbers applying to Oxbridge and getting in. They all have an Oxbridge programme and the strongest students have a go and many get places. This seems good.

I guess it depends if you want a school that will push the majority to have a go at Oxbridge, even if they really aren’t that calibre. The reality is that even in popular, high performing schools, especially those who have some students who come in at a younger age and don’t face testing entry requirements at senior age, there is a broader range of ability. Lots of the students might well manage very good GCSEs given they are reasonably intelligent and have great resources in terms of staff numbers and other resources, but this doesn’t make the students all or mostly Oxbridge level.

Especially if you look at recent years of Covid GCSE/Alevel results which are very inflated, it can lead to parents thinking large proportions of the cohort really are Oxbridge level….but they aren’t. The schools know this. They know that a great string of GCSEs don’t necessarily make you Oxbridge material…even if the parents and those on MN can’t see that.

When selective fee paying schools put fewer students forward, it rarely is because they want to hold back good students. Of course it’s totally against their own interests to do this. If anything, most out forward too many, some of whom don’t really have a realistic chance at all. So when they put fewer forward, it really is a reflection of the ability range.

You absolutely cannot compare the GCSE or A Level results of a state school with an independent and conclude they must have the same ability level because results are the same. You do need to look at their starting points. It’s hard to measure, but when you know that regularly kids who get a place at the independent but don’t get an offer at the state Grammar, you can conclude that the range of ability at the independent is wider. This is almost always the case…not that there aren’t lots of extremely clever girls or boys in these top schools, but also there are always a number who are ‘the tail’ and that the tail can be much bigger than people imagine, even if very popular and high achieving schools.

Remember these schools are exam factories. They can push out hugely impressive GCSE results and force moderately bright kids to achieve at top levels. They can do similar at A Level and get the moderately bright to A grade and even A. But that’s not the same as being Oxbridge material. Most students on popular degrees at RG unis now have a clutch of A/A grades….those grades are far more widespread than even 3 or 5 years ago. But Oxbridge has limited places and they need to go to the brightest across the country. One shouldn’t imagine that because their child attends a top 50 school, most or even large proportions will. Be this level, or that the school is failing if ‘only’ 20% apply to Oxbridge and ‘only’ 10% get places. People have an inflated sense of the ability of the cohorts within schools and a daft sense of how many of the limited places that are available for the entire nation should be available and deserved by one particular school.

@365sleepstogo your information on JAGs isn't correct. Girls not suited for the senior school are asked to leave from year 5. Entry isn't guaranteed and about 10% of the intake don't progress. The school is quite open about this during the open day.

Alleyns does provide automatic transfer and doesn't weed kids out at any stage. The cohort on average is very able but the 'tail' is lower as they have great systems in place for kids with severe dyslexia etc who seem to choose to stay despite the academic challenges as the environment is so supportive. They also have a specific programme in the secondary school in partnership with government to take in children with higher pastoral needs who've been in care. They know if they culled the bottom 10% what it would do to their league table standing and choose to support the children instead.

@WombatChocolate the data is clear. The resources at independent schools make a difference in results but long-term research suggests the difference is between AAA vs AAB.

JAGS don’t weed out 10% of pupils at 11+, none have left in the last couple of years, apart from those who moved out of London/emigrated. There is no need to meet a certain standard at 11*.
It may have been the case a few years ago but not since change of leadership when the previous head started.
No doubt they would speak with parents if a pupil is struggling at the prep school.

Alleyn’s place children who don’t make the 11+ standard on probation for y7 & 8 and are formally assessed during this time.

I am not suggesting one method is better than the other - I have no bias either way @LondonMum81

@WombatChocolate i disagree that the schools are exam factories. In fact, of the people I know (including myself) who chose independent over grammar, a lot of the reason was precisely because they aren't exam factories. They have smaller classes, longer days and better facilities, which means they can provide a breadth of education in sport, music, drama etc while still achieving great grades, that can be hard to achieve in the state sector. If I'd just wanted the grades, I'd have gone for the grammar place and saved myself the money. (Though as it happens, the independent also gets better GCSE grades than the super-selective grammar, in spite of being marginally easier to get into. Presumably the additional funding manages to add that value.)

I wouldn’t disagree about all the other positives of independent schools. It’s why we chose them too.
However, the bottom line is always the exam results. Whatever they might say in brochures and at events about league tables and results not mattering, they do. Parents study them forestically, and this thread which focuses on precise numbers of Oxbridge applicants shows that again.

Speak to the staff at these top schools. They will tell you that yes the extra curriculars etc are important and pastoral care is more important now than ever, but the big pressure is still and always is for results.

But I also agree that these schools often add more value. They do take a broader range of ability than the super selective state schools do, and often they produce better results in the end. Those extra resources do make a difference somewhere along the line and especially for those students who are a little bit more marginal and probably not Oxbridge candidates. For those who can afford the fees without too much sacrifice (and there’s another thread running about how much cash you need for this to be the case) then it can feel worth it for the more comfortable experience and probably slightly better grades. For those for who, it would be very tight or impossible, if there’s an excellent state school available, it’s a no-brainer and the ‘extra’ gained from paying £25k a year, whilst a nice-to-have, just isn’t worth the cost.

Am interesting thread with lots of detail. The earlier point about when you get selected and if you can just move up automatically would change the cohort

It’s harder to be so precise at 4 than 11 I imagine

@365sleepstogo JAGs tells parents in year 5 if a girl isn’t up to scratch. This was as of last year still the case. They have a new head that’s just started but it’s not a secret. I have friends with daughters in the senior school as well who have know kids who have been asked to leave the senior school.

I don’t know of anyone whose been asked to leave Alleyns including friends with kids with profound dyslexia.

At DC they’ll let you know if they think it’s not the right fit but it’s always parents choice to stay.

Every school is different and these approaches are why it’s ridiculous to compare schools via league tables

The difference is usually estimated at something more like a single grade across all subjects, e.g. AAA vs AAB. For obvious reasons this translate into a significant shift in any league table position - it's the equivalent of a third of a school's A grades slipping into a B, which is obviously huge.

I've no idea where your "it is hard to get in to JAGs" comes from. It's patently untrue for a really significant rump of both the prep and 11+ entry cohorts. Selective weeding out will raise average standards somewhat but far too many get into the system as toddlers for any real pinpoint accuracy. Purely anecdotal but within the last couple of years but I've known JAGs make offer to more than one girl who was very average in her bog standard state primary class, and who, even with private tutoring, was at least one notch below a really high Sutton 11+ or Wandsworth Test score.

@puffyisgood I don't have a daughter at JAGs and personally wouldn't choose it for my girls so I don't really have a stake in this debate. Let's agree to disagree about how difficult it is to get into the school as we clearly have very different anecdotal data points and there is no objective way to prove or disprove an assertion like this either way.

Also, I said AAA vs AAB so I'm not sure what point you are making there?

I have to disagree with you both, having daughters in both JAGS and Alleyn’s including the cohort described - no-one has been asked to leave in y5 from either school, let alone 10%.
If you read my previous post, I did say it wouldn’t surprise me if JAGS (or any selective school) discussed with the parents if a child was struggling to keep up with the pace of work. Tbh, I am not sure it would be in the child’s interest, particular their confidence, to stay on and feel they are not on par with their peers academically.
I have daughters at both schools, choosing JAGS over Alleyn’s for one of them, and it has been an overall very positive experience for them both so far.

@puffyisgood - you seem to have a particular axe to grind about JAGS, making sweeping statements based on some people you know. I know those who have got grammar school places but not got offers at JAGS/Alleyn’s. Perhaps the schools assess pupils in different ways? There are pre-tests and interviews at some schools with assessment of aptitude and potential not just current ability.
Not sure can compare can how tough the entry is into different schools when tests are non standardised.

I think the issue here is that the numbers you have are bogus. There were 58 Oxbridge applicants at Alleyn's in 2021 (and 11 Medic applications on top of that). No one is prevented from applying.