Help I am not sure whether I made the right choice for our DD by going to our local comprehensive

[daysem]

Hello dear mums,

My DD is in an outstanding local secondary in New Malden . All our neighbours love the school but I am not sure it is the right school for my DD.
My DD took the grammar tests and some independent school tests. She was offered places in several independent schools ( not the super selective ones) but as money was tight we went with our local comprehensive, which was praised by local parents.

At the start of Year 7, my DD sat the Cats4 test and based on her Cats4 test, her school sat her targets. Her current GSCE target is 6 plus. I am aware that my DD is not a genius. She is very good at certain subjects but not a budding scientist. Still, I am a bit upset that her current school does not stretch her more and does not have higher expectations on her. I am not a tiger parent but I want the school to stretch her and not give up on her .

Here is the question, financially it would be hard but should I look into moving her to an independent school before Year 9 ( before GSCE’s) where she might be supported and stretched a bit more.

Did anyone experience this? If your child is relatively average do you think they are better off in an independent school in a small class size?

As a parent I want to make sure that she has the best opportunities and I feel like I failed her. Sorry for the really long winded message. Please be kind in your comments.

Setting a target of 6+ does not mean that that they do not expect her to get higher, or that they will not push her to do so.

Yes we had the same for ds1. We decided to keep him in the secondary school and just pushed him at home and used the money we saved to stretch him in other ways like tutors and travelling.
If you can afford it comfortably then I would choose the independent school.

Thank you for your comments. You are right the school said that she can always get higher marks but I am not sure whether they would support her in attaining higher marks. Anecdotally, I was told that the school concentrates on kids on top sets.

Ds1 was average, based on his SATs and CATs they placed him at a predicted flight path through school to achieve a 4/5 in English lang and a 6 in maths.

They supported and nurtured him. At home we widened his knowledge base on things they were covering in school, so for Geography they covered the Grand Canyon so we watched a couple of videos on YouTube from the National Parks who oversee the Grand Canyon. We did this alongside learning things just for fun. The internet and especially YouTube is a great resource. We played games together, watched tv shows and discussed Ross's relationship with Rachel in Friends etc etc. Learning isn't just about something you are tested on.

When it came to year 9 Ds started to get confident in his ability because he was now doing the option subjects he liked. He decided that his grades predicted from when he was 11 years old were not going to define him. He put in a little bit extra effort at home, genuinely not a huge amount and saw him achieve a grade 8 in English lang and a 9 in maths. The majority of his GCSE grades were 9s.

Life is not defined at 11 or 12. Learning is not linear. All the CATs do is give school a baseline so that they can show Progress 8 information. Learning doesn't just take place in school. Your role as a parent is just as important, supporting homework, showing an interest in what they are learning about. We never asked did you have a good day but instead my children came home and said in maths we did angles, in History we did Catholic threats in Elizabethan society etc. These things can spark conversations with them also teaching you things too.

The school has a good reputation, I would keep her there and see how she gets on. Money can be spent on tutors rather than independent schools. Also you may wish to just look at how much it may cost you to support a child going through university. You might want to save for that www.savethestudent.org/student-finance/maintenance-loans.html

The advantages of small class sizes is often overstated @daysem. Conversely the impact of great teachers is often understated (and no, I'm not a teacher!).

Most of the pedagogical research actually shows that the quality of teaching is a considerably more significant factor – so DCs do better in large classes with a good teacher than they do in small classes with a poor one.

Of course, there are exceptions to this general rule, before anyone goes all anecdotal on me, but that's what the data shows.

I have pm’d you @daysem

Thank you @OnTheBenchOfDoom. It was so nice to read your post. Exactly my sentiment a child’s future should and cannot be defined at the age 11. I think hard work always beats intelligence and I am pleased to hear that your Ds did so well which attests this. Thank you @thing47 it would be great to see that pedagogical research.

@Lockdowndramaqueen I pmd you.

I don't really work in educational research any more (though I do still follow it from personal interest). Unfortunately, some of the more detailed studies are only open to people working in the field, but if it's a subject which interests you, there is some basic DoE research.
The CSPAR study is also worth a look.

It's quite hard to quantify the impact of various elements of the school process because they are interlinked, so isolating one factor and stripping out relating issues is not a perfect science. But the DoE paper references several earlier studies which haven't found a definitive link between class size and attainment (at secondary level, they might show a benefit at primary level) and others which reiterate the beneficial impact of good teaching. HTH

@thing47 very interesting. I will try to findthe DoE and the CSPAR study. It would make good Easter reading.

If your daughter is happy and settled at her school and has a good friendship group then I wouldn’t move her. I would probably get her a tutor a couple of times a week, one in English and one in Maths and then maybe switch up subjects as she gets older.

I've no idea if this is the case by the way but...is it possible the school are measured on how many children exceed their target (and how many children fail to achieve it) so this incentivises the school to predict a lower grade then they otherwise would so the percent of children who out-petform is high?

Thank you @3WildOnes she made good friends and is generally happy at school. Interesting point you raise @gumballbarry it is hard to know if that’s the case? I guess we will never know.

Are you sure the target is based on the Cat tests? Usually school use these tests to set the children. GCSE target grades are based on their KS2 Sats results via the DofE, I didn’t think school were allowed to set target grades themselves?

As she is happy I really wouldn’t worry and would keep here where she is settled.

@3WildOnes due to COVID they did not sit Sats last year. Her primary did mock Sats which my DD did well but as said she is not a genius so does not necessarily perform very well in verbal and non verbal reasoning components.

And Cats4 assesses verbal reasoning, non verbal and spatial skills too

Why do you say that the current school does not stretch her more? Is this what you are seeing and what she is telling you, or is it because of her predicted grades? I’m not clear from your OP.

What was your impression from parents evening? Is she working hard, finding things easy, how’s it going?

Is your DD currently in Y8? If so are you sure that target isn't for at the end of KS3 as opposed to the GCSE grade?

@EduCated what I mean by stretch is that my DD hardly gets any homework and she certainly does not spend much revising for exams. This could be fairly common as she is in Year 7. Sorry, she is my first DD in secondary and I have no idea whether this is normal or not. My DD is happy but my worry is that she may not end up getting good enough GSCE grades unless I push her. Does that make sense?

@BlackberrySky the school uses the term target but does not elaborate on it. The exact wording in DD's report states 'Targets have been generated from CAT4 tests set in the Autumn Term of 2021. This will allow us to generate GSCE Targets against which we will assess your daughter's progress. ' I guess then the GSCE targets could be different.

I wouldn’t expect a year 7 to get a tonne of homework or to have to do much revision. It’s still young really.

Plus they’ll all get similar levels of homework anyway so I wouldn’t look to that as a reason for her not being stretched.

I also think you’re placing far too much value on your DD’s grades. There’s so much more to life and a lot can change in either direction between Y7 and GCSEs. As long as she gets grades good enough to do what she wants next it really doesn’t matter that much.

My worry would be DD picks up on your anxiety related to grades and starts to define herself by then. Particularly if you remove her from a school she’s happy in to a new school just for the chance of getting better grades.

For now I would just focus on making sure she’s happy and engaged, stays on target and makes an effort. Closer to GCSEs you can discuss whether a tutor would be beneficial for some subjects perhaps.

@user1471504747 thanks for your comments.

I do not think my DD picks up on my anxiety as I do not discuss these issues with her.

For the time being, I will keep her at her current school and perhaps change schools if she feels unhappy/unsupported.

My DS1 was academically average. We could not have afforded private and I was very slow off the mark for selective, literally tutoring him myself the weekend before. Needless to say he didn’t pass. He went to the local comp. a bit roughty tufty especially in year 7 before the disruptive elements either knuckled down or for expelled. One of the best things I did was get him an excellent tutor for English at gcse and then A level. This taught him a lot beyond the subject- general studying and exam techniques for example. It really boosted his confidence. Best of luck to your DD.

Thank you @whataboutbob. I absolutely agree.

I tried tutoring my DD during the lockdown and it was a catastrophe!. As you say, I think a good tutor can make a big difference in any subject.

I don't think schools can make up the SATS and CATS test results which would give the target GCSE grades. So they can't use it as a way of saying they have had lots of students make excellent progress.

I don't think Year 7 should get loads of homework tbh. as they're just settling in.

I agree with others - a tutor maybe later on for English and Maths. Then use the money you would have spent on private for experiences and extra curricular.

A grade 6 is a perfectly decent grade and would enable her to take A level in that subject. Also you don't want to make her life incredibly stressful and miserable for the sake of some grade 9s.

Just out of interest are you more academic? Or were you top end of average? Just wondering why you are so keen on top grades.

@converseandjeans thanks for your answer.

To clarify, I am not obsessed with grade 9s but I am an academic and I know very well that low GSCE and A level grades can limit kids' uni choices.

I want to make sure that my DD can go to a decent Uni if she chooses to do so and is not limited in her options. Call me a pushy or a helicopter parent if you like :)

I do not think this has anything to do with me but I was probably at the top end of average. I went to an independent school, went to Uni. I have a postgrad degree and a PhD.