Why on earth would anyone reject SPGS??

[newsibling123]

I've been reading through many threads with mums wondering between SPGS and G&L.

While G&L is a great school, why on Earth would there be a conflict in choosing SPGS, they applied in the first place, its not like they got cold called by the school and their DD offered a place!

If we applied to SPGS, we'd put G&L as back up, but if we had two offers there's no question we'd choose SPGS. The only way I can imagine conflict is if G&L offered a scholarship, or DD really didn't want to go SPGS, even then we would try and show her what a brilliant opportunity it was.

I know one chooses the best school for the DC, etc etc, but I can't imagine any scenario, all things being equal, how G&L would be 'better'. If DD was heavily tutored and parent was worried she'd struggle at SPGS now they have offer in hand, then G&L doesn't come to mind as an alternative to that! One of the less intense GDST schools or somewhere with broader selection, less high academic like Portland or More House maybe?

Don't mean to offend anyone here, choosing school is tough, but I just don't get this at all...It's like getting a place at Oxford and choosing Durham

The only time I’ve seen children applying without a parent is at LU when my DC’s friend (who herself had won a full bursary for a place in the sixth form) got the forms and applied for her younger sister as their mother didn’t speak English. She also brought her younger sister to the open day, exams, etc, but the child didn’t get in unfortunately.

Jesus Christ, I didn't realise my anecdote (which is true, despite the sneering "yeah rights") would cause such a storm. Some of you may find it weird that a clever child wanted to apply to an elite school for the challenge of it. Others get it.

The girl would have prob heard of SPGS and Tiffin because she lives in an area of London where it is known as THE school. Possibly, if they run a G&T programme (don't know if they do or not) she'd been part of it. I know her mother wondered about SPGS for her older sister but decided against it for reasons already explained. They did see the school as "unthinkable", just thought she probably wouldn't get in and were then presented with a big dilemma when she did win a place.

The child was bored in lockdown. She googled past papers, she had a go, enjoyed the exercise and asked to apply. Her mum thought 'why not let her have a go?' But ultimately, the place was unaffordable and the family have had a great experience with the very local school where her siblings are on track to do extremely well and gain Oxbridge places, her mother also doesn't believe in private education. The mother will not have secretly been plotting behind the scenes to get her dd in, apart from anything else she was far too busy - her work is directly connected to the pandemic. I say all credit to SPGS for recognising she was self-taught and not prepped to the nth, like many prep school applicants.

The refugee background is relevant in that my friend arrived in the UK barely speaking English aged 15 (ie quite old) but, despite the linguistic and social hurdles she faced around the same time she was taking GCSEs and A-levels, still made it to Cambridge and therefore has concluded you do not need to attend a top school to attend a top university and that the latter is far more important in the scheme of things. Which I agree with. My friend with a dd at SPGS agrees too and advised her since she was lukewarm not to take up the place. Many of you don't. I'm sorry it upsets you that clever children can get into schools that are perceived as unobtainable and still turn the opportunity down. I am pretty sure I would have sent my dd, but I respect other people's choices.

By the way I do know a couple of people who rolled out of bed and into Oxford though it was years ago. They were both from working class backgrounds, and underperforming schools, fiercely bright if not widely read, and were given 2 EE offers, and allowed to shortcut the old fourth term exam system ( how many bright people did that put off?) . They have more than demonstrated the process was valid by not only doing well but rising to the top of their (they are both women) professions / careers. It is a shame that practise was discontinued really.

I went to Oxbridge from a bog standard comp. No rolling out of bed for me - had to work hard to get there and while there. But it’s given me the confidence to pick more chilled schools for my dds and I also don’t think oxbridge is the be all and end all.

@findingthewords

You are obviously extremely riled about this so I think we'll just have to agree to differ (though I could also randomly drag my teen DD's view into the mix in order to settle the argument ). I've explained very clearly why I imagine this particular person applied, it really does not seem at all odd to me for all the reasons I've set out.

All this shock and awe at someone daring to try to get into a difficult school and then choosing not to take up a place, smacks of an uneasiness about the fact some of the kids at the local state schools are every bit as academic as the kids getting into the ‘top schools’. Having had experience of good state schools and good private schools, I’d say the attainment of the students at the top is really not very different, which might make for uncomfortable reading for those shelling out vast amounts of money for private schools (and, as I say, I’m in that category too so this is not about me feeling self-satisfied). I think one of the reasons (NB one of the reasons, not the only reason) behind investing in private schooling can be the belief that the bright young minds of our offspring couldn’t possibly be nourished by a regular school because they are just on a different plane intellectually. Stories like the one we’ve been discussing burst that bubble, which I suspect is why the person who posted it was met with such ‘astonishment’. I'm sure it's much more comfortable to claim that the family in question is REALLY WEIRD or 'completely nuts' or that the story just isn't true

I have no reason to ask the SPGS for the stats for how many children do not take up places offered but I do know of three girls who turned down places last year - it seems very odd that I'd know almost half or more girls who didn't take up places. And the emails they sent after offers day chasing for responses would indicate that not everyone snapped up the spots immediately.

And as for my comment about the mother's refugee's status, of course refugees can come from wealthy families but you will be aware there are many different kinds of privilege and I don't see how it is in any way patronising to suggest that refugees generally have had to overcome obstacles that others haven't. I think you are just trying to undermine my arguments by suggesting I'm saying something outrageous. Anyway, i'm going to step away from the hysteria.

Londonprep.com sheds some light on SPGS offers vs acceptances. Not totally comprehensive, but provides some good insights:

www.londonpreprep.com/2021/04/st-pauls-girls-school-feeders/

@ForeverbyJudyBlume

Jesus Christ, I didn't realise my anecdote (which is true, despite the sneering "yeah rights") would cause such a storm. Some of you may find it weird that a clever child wanted to apply to an elite school for the challenge of it. Others get it.

The girl would have prob heard of SPGS and Tiffin because she lives in an area of London where it is known as THE school. Possibly, if they run a G&T programme (don't know if they do or not) she'd been part of it. I know her mother wondered about SPGS for her older sister but decided against it for reasons already explained. They did see the school as "unthinkable", just thought she probably wouldn't get in and were then presented with a big dilemma when she did win a place.

The child was bored in lockdown. She googled past papers, she had a go, enjoyed the exercise and asked to apply. Her mum thought 'why not let her have a go?' But ultimately, the place was unaffordable and the family have had a great experience with the very local school where her siblings are on track to do extremely well and gain Oxbridge places, her mother also doesn't believe in private education. The mother will not have secretly been plotting behind the scenes to get her dd in, apart from anything else she was far too busy - her work is directly connected to the pandemic. I say all credit to SPGS for recognising she was self-taught and not prepped to the nth, like many prep school applicants.

The refugee background is relevant in that my friend arrived in the UK barely speaking English aged 15 (ie quite old) but, despite the linguistic and social hurdles she faced around the same time she was taking GCSEs and A-levels, still made it to Cambridge and therefore has concluded you do not need to attend a top school to attend a top university and that the latter is far more important in the scheme of things. Which I agree with. My friend with a dd at SPGS agrees too and advised her since she was lukewarm not to take up the place. Many of you don't. I'm sorry it upsets you that clever children can get into schools that are perceived as unobtainable and still turn the opportunity down. I am pretty sure I would have sent my dd, but I respect other people's choices.

Seriously @ForeverbyJudyBlume

Are you having an argument with yourself? I can't see anyone on this thread that's upset clever children can get into schools that are perceived as unobtainable and still turn the opportunity down

I started this thread, I'm the OP, and it doesn't upset me to see clever children turn a place down, it only upsets me when parents agonise over SPGS and G&L and can't decide, the tie breaker being whose got the best netball team, that's silly and the insecure parent is showing off.

Like the others I think it's a little sad this girl needs to prove something to herself, it reeks of insecurity, that she feels she needs confirmation from this institution that she is clever. For me and many others, being offered a place at SPGS doesn't make you better than other girls, it just means the school thinks you'll fit, that's all. If my DD wanted to do this, I'd be just go, or don't go, you don't have to prove anything.

You also write you do not need to attend a top school to attend a top university and that the latter is far more important in the scheme of things Again, I don't see anyone arguing this neither. Although unfortunately in this class divided society, your school does still play a huge role in certain industries, its changing, but we're light years from approaching a level playing field where your old school tie is irrelevant.

You wrote smacks of an uneasiness about the fact some of the kids at the local state schools are every bit as academic as the kids getting into the ‘top schools Who on Earth thinks that?? SPGS actively wants to recruit more girls from state schools, just like all elite institutions at least say they do. This statement sounds particularly weird as what sort of monster would resent smart state school children going to SPGS?? Its why I write, who are you arguing with?

Glad you don't see any of these things, OP, others clearly feel them - I didn't actually write the smacks of uneasiness bit but others agree with me.

I'll say again, though, I don't think it's remotely sad the girl set herself an intellectual challenge and succeeded.

@OP Really? "I think it's a little sad this girl needs to prove something to herself, it reeks of insecurity, that she feels she needs confirmation from this institution that she is clever". I read it as the girl knows she is very clever and has the confidence to take the initiative to win a place and turn it down. She also most likely knows that she will do at least as well as others who are clambering over places there. I would say an independent girl like her who has the confidence to steer this at that age is most likely a true outlier who will stand out when over many who are shunted through the process by over-invested parents.

I think what's odd about the post is the assumption 'all things being equal' SPGS is the best because of its league table results. All the other very important considerations (pastoral care, ethos, diversity, etc) are never equal which is why there is no one best school.

A child who gets into SPGS would likely end up with identical academic results in any of the to 20 girls schools in the UK which is why if that's what you are lucky enough to be choosing between, the league table ranking becomes fairly irrelevant @newsibling123

[quote StarryNightfall]@OP Really? "I think it's a little sad this girl needs to prove something to herself, it reeks of insecurity, that she feels she needs confirmation from this institution that she is clever". I read it as the girl knows she is very clever and has the confidence to take the initiative to win a place and turn it down. She also most likely knows that she will do at least as well as others who are clambering over places there. I would say an independent girl like her who has the confidence to steer this at that age is most likely a true outlier who will stand out when over many who are shunted through the process by over-invested parents.[/quote]
OK, if you think 10 year olds thinking they must prove something with gaining admission to an institution, is OK, that's great. We agree to disagree.

I just don't see why it is such a big issue is if the girl wanted to prove that she could get an offer and turn it down. I would be far less concerned about that girl's state of mind than one who is pressurised by parents into accepting a place because they are 'lucky' enough to get one. You yourself said in your original post " (if) DD really didn't want to go SPGS, even then we would try and show her what a brilliant opportunity it was." Many would find that pressure more concerning.

If one has a child with the raw intelligence and confidence to get a place on her own steam at ten, I don't think her parents need worry too much about any school tie.

@StarryNightfall

I just don't see why it is such a big issue is if the girl wanted to prove that she could get an offer and turn it down. I would be far less concerned about that girl's state of mind than one who is pressurised by parents into accepting a place because they are 'lucky' enough to get one. You yourself said in your original post " (if) DD really didn't want to go SPGS, even then we would try and show her what a brilliant opportunity it was." Many would find that pressure more concerning.

If one has a child with the raw intelligence and confidence to get a place on her own steam at ten, I don't think her parents need worry too much about any school tie.

If my DD expressed an interest to go to SPGS , we went through the process and she got an offer and she didn't want to go, I will point out its a great opportunity, but I wouldn't force her to go.

I'd like to think I've raised my DD to have a reasoned discussion with her, but listen to what she's saying. I wouldn't force her to go, no, her happiness is the most important thing. If that's not your priority as a parent, something is really wrong.

You read an awful lot into this don't you @StarryNightfall

@ConfusedaboutSchool

I think what's odd about the post is the assumption 'all things being equal' SPGS is the best because of its league table results. All the other very important considerations (pastoral care, ethos, diversity, etc) are never equal which is why there is no one best school.

A child who gets into SPGS would likely end up with identical academic results in any of the to 20 girls schools in the UK which is why if that's what you are lucky enough to be choosing between, the league table ranking becomes fairly irrelevant @newsibling123

'All things being equal ' being the DD has no preference for either school, the DD seems a fit for both SPGS or G&L and one school hasn't offered a scholarship over the other- and the DD looks to her parents to advise with the two offers. SPGS is best based on league table , that's it. Everything else is subjective to the child's need.

You say: " child who gets into SPGS would likely end up with identical academic results in any of the to 20 girls schools in the UK "

So you could swap the entire year of SPGS with say CLGS and they all have the same results? Doesn't that contradict what you just said (pastoral care, ethos, diversity, etc) So those things mean nothing then?

Endless posts on this thread with straw man arguments thinly veiled because poster has a chip on their shoulder with SPGS , or elitism or whatever, SPGS is the best school in the UK by league table, might not be best for your DD, now lets all move on...

I am only reading what you yourself wrote about how you would treat a situation with your own DD @newsibling123. However you set a certain tone of unhealthy over-investment yourself by starting a thread about why someone else's child who presumably you don't even know would turn down a place at a certain school. Could I maybe suggest a hobby more fulfilling than scanning school league tables.

@StarryNightfall

I am only reading what you yourself wrote about how you would treat a situation with your own DD *@newsibling123*. However you set a certain tone of unhealthy over-investment yourself by starting a thread about why someone else's child who presumably you don't even know would turn down a place at a certain school. Could I maybe suggest a hobby more fulfilling than scanning school league tables.

If you bothered to read the thread it was in response to idiots boasting about offers they had and deciding between the best schools based on f-ing netball. If you think those insecure parents posting nonsense.

So get your facts right before making assumptions.

Could I maybe suggest a hobby more fulfilling than scanning school league tables

I have children, why the f_k wouldn't I be interested in league tables???

So what if someone is choosing between schools where they know their DD will do equally well and factor in something that will enrich her and make her happier. And so what if it is netball. Not everything has to be part of a tick list to get you into a specific college in Cambridge! Outsiders don't know anything about the ins and outs of other people's choices and the weighting they put on their own criteria. How does that render people insecure?

@newsibling123 I think academic results would be the same. Pastoral care and ethos go to the broader meaning of 'education' and won't drive results but overall well-being and personal growth.

But yes, I think all the top schools have a similar value-add and the differences in results are down to the ability of the cohort the the academic instruction they are receiving.

So taking St Pauls boys as an example, about 50% of their cohort is in the top 3% of the ability range nationally (based on their own published information) with almost all within the top 10%.

At another boys school, perhaps only 20% will be in the top 3% with the rest falling at various points within the top 10%.

In either school, the top 3% will get the same results academically and attend similar universities. Those near the bottom of the top 10% will also achieve similar results and attend similar universities. Its just that St Pauls get a higher number of top applicants which pushes it up the league tables.

This is true for SPGS as well. The league table standing simply reflects an intake that skews slightly higher in average ability.

Should say:

*rather than the academic instruction

Because league tables only tell part of the story. Intake is a huge part of the successful results of such schools and if you think otherwise you are extremely gullible. They don't have some weird success recipe. My DC had to choose between top selective schools and we considered things like how they could play the sports they loved. Maybe you will see things more holistically down the line. I hope so.

Well OP has had a little taste of the madness that descends on parents as the entrance exams loom. If OP thinks these anecdotes are extreme she is in for quite a ride. There was a girl we knew who had been earmarked for SPGS almost from birth by both sets of grandparents (never mind the parents) who paid for the tutoring for two years before, even though she was in a prep school that did have a track record of girls going on to SPGS. Then she didn’t get in. I just can’t imagine setting such a high and narrow bar for your child to succeed and such a huge abyss of failure. There was another girl at a school narrowly beneath SPGS in the league tables who had had more than one sister go to SPGS who used to identify her to other people as “the one who didn’t go to St Pauls”. When one of a friends daughters did get in to St Pauls that mother commented “Congratulations. Mind you it’s hard, my girls are just average there.”

I could go on but many girls’ self esteem suffered from that competitive vicarious ambition based on an over preoccupation with league tables.

And I absolutely do think that if you took a girl from SPGS and put her into Putney High or KGS or Surbiton they would enable her to achieve the same results. Indeed might actually enable her to do better. I know so many girls who went to those schools who have gone on to Oxbridge and elite universities and to do medicine etc. They are still some of the top schools in the country in terms of results, the gap parents put between those schools and the ones at the top of the table, and even more so between LEH / G&L and SPGS are largely illusions, easily explained by being more selective in the first place.

Best decisions we ever made was to let one DD decide to reject SPGS in favour of a school that was certainly instrumental in giving her the motivation and confidence necessary to succeed in a traditionally male dominated discipline / field, then to let the other DD leave that same school (who didn’t want her to go) for a less academic coed where she thrived in the less pressured more encouraging environment and almost certainly did better academically.

There is some good advice on here from people who have been through the process and seen how it turns out long term.

Oh and by the way the very bright girl above who got a place at St Pauls, went to visit hated it and went to a coed.

@Emilyontmoor

Well OP has had a little taste of the madness that descends on parents as the entrance exams loom. If OP thinks these anecdotes are extreme she is in for quite a ride. There was a girl we knew who had been earmarked for SPGS almost from birth by both sets of grandparents (never mind the parents) who paid for the tutoring for two years before, even though she was in a prep school that did have a track record of girls going on to SPGS. Then she didn’t get in. I just can’t imagine setting such a high and narrow bar for your child to succeed and such a huge abyss of failure. There was another girl at a school narrowly beneath SPGS in the league tables who had had more than one sister go to SPGS who used to identify her to other people as “the one who didn’t go to St Pauls”. When one of a friends daughters did get in to St Pauls that mother commented “Congratulations. Mind you it’s hard, my girls are just average there.”

I could go on but many girls’ self esteem suffered from that competitive vicarious ambition based on an over preoccupation with league tables.

And I absolutely do think that if you took a girl from SPGS and put her into Putney High or KGS or Surbiton they would enable her to achieve the same results. Indeed might actually enable her to do better. I know so many girls who went to those schools who have gone on to Oxbridge and elite universities and to do medicine etc. They are still some of the top schools in the country in terms of results, the gap parents put between those schools and the ones at the top of the table, and even more so between LEH / G&L and SPGS are largely illusions, easily explained by being more selective in the first place.

Best decisions we ever made was to let one DD decide to reject SPGS in favour of a school that was certainly instrumental in giving her the motivation and confidence necessary to succeed in a traditionally male dominated discipline / field, then to let the other DD leave that same school (who didn’t want her to go) for a less academic coed where she thrived in the less pressured more encouraging environment and almost certainly did better academically.

There is some good advice on here from people who have been through the process and seen how it turns out long term.

As interesting as your stories are , what have they got to do with the thread?

• A girl fails to get in whose family wanted her to go
• Another girl fails to get in whose mum wanted her to go, her sister gets in.

This happens for many schools and universities, with pushy parents.

At least your last two points address the thread

-You think PHS, KGS or Surbiton are the same as SPGS, great for you, I don't think so.

-You had two DD's who didn't fit the school, and? I've never advocated forcing children to attend schools they don't want to go to.

Another post with someone with an agenda....

@Emilyontmoor seems to have answered OP’s question “Why on earth would anyone reject SPGS??”

Best decisions we ever made was to let one DD decide to reject SPGS in favour of a school that was certainly instrumental in giving her the motivation and confidence necessary to succeed in a traditionally male dominated discipline / field

But apparently, despite OP claiming that they wouldn’t force a child to attend a school they didn’t like, that’s “an agenda”.

[quote TheAbbotOfUnreason]@Emilyontmoor seems to have answered OP’s question “Why on earth would anyone reject SPGS??”

Best decisions we ever made was to let one DD decide to reject SPGS in favour of a school that was certainly instrumental in giving her the motivation and confidence necessary to succeed in a traditionally male dominated discipline / field

But apparently, despite OP claiming that they wouldn’t force a child to attend a school they didn’t like, that’s “an agenda”.[/quote]
Er...From my original OP - "The only way I can imagine conflict is if G&L offered a scholarship, or DD really didn't want to go SPGS, "

You're welcome.