Why on earth would anyone reject SPGS??

[newsibling123]

I've been reading through many threads with mums wondering between SPGS and G&L.

While G&L is a great school, why on Earth would there be a conflict in choosing SPGS, they applied in the first place, its not like they got cold called by the school and their DD offered a place!

If we applied to SPGS, we'd put G&L as back up, but if we had two offers there's no question we'd choose SPGS. The only way I can imagine conflict is if G&L offered a scholarship, or DD really didn't want to go SPGS, even then we would try and show her what a brilliant opportunity it was.

I know one chooses the best school for the DC, etc etc, but I can't imagine any scenario, all things being equal, how G&L would be 'better'. If DD was heavily tutored and parent was worried she'd struggle at SPGS now they have offer in hand, then G&L doesn't come to mind as an alternative to that! One of the less intense GDST schools or somewhere with broader selection, less high academic like Portland or More House maybe?

Don't mean to offend anyone here, choosing school is tough, but I just don't get this at all...It's like getting a place at Oxford and choosing Durham

Are we to presume this child not only applied to SPGS by herself but also paid the application fee by herself?

@ForeverbyJudyBlume I think the reason it makes people angry is these private schools are so expensive and they have spent so much for what they believe is a wonderful leg up, they then don’t want to hear some think they aren’t worth it.

I completely get why your friend takes the view she does.

@ForeverbyJudyBlume

Sorry if it sounds completely nuts, that's the way it is. She could JUST afford the fees but it would have been a squeeze, she didn't qualify (just) for a bursary.

The child applied to Tiffin and SPGS herself - if she had REALLY wanted to go to one or the other my friend would have let her but she was ambivalent.

I'm saying my friend was a refugee who arrived in the UK speaking very little English aged 15, went to a low-performing comp, still made it to Cambridge, she therefore is dubious about the added value private schools offer.

I may well not have made her choice and obviously you wouldn't either but I'm not sure why it makes you so angry.

It doesn't make me angry, I think its just weird and sad.

I don't understand what you mean, if her DD REALLY wanted to go? If my DD took it on herself to apply to two of the most competitive schools in London off her own bat, I'd take that as a sign she REALLY wanted to go, especially paying reg fees herself ( I assume)

Not sure what your trying to prove with this woman, other than she's sounds batshit crazy.

Can you make it to Cambridge without private school...er..most do. So not sure what your point is, it's an awful example to choose that's for sure.

[quote MissHavershamReturns]@ForeverbyJudyBlume I think the reason it makes people angry is these private schools are so expensive and they have spent so much for what they believe is a wonderful leg up, they then don’t want to hear some think they aren’t worth it.

I completely get why your friend takes the view she does.[/quote]
That doesn't make sense for Tiffin though does it?

You understand why a mum would stop her daughter attending a brilliant grammar school, because there's a average comp down the road??

The woman sounds like an inverse snob, to the point she restricts the aspirations of her own daughter.

I don't think it sounds weird and sad at all, my friend is neither of those things.

Tiffin is miles away from them and very difficult to get to, the school she's chosen is at the end of their road, all her friends from primary school were going there, her siblings attended it and were doing very well indeed.

Her dd found old Tiffin and SPGS papers during lockdown, practised alone, asked if she could apply - her mum said yes and paid the application fees, thinking she probably wouldn't get in but if her dd wanted to try, why not? It was more of an academic game for her than desperately wanting to go to these particular schools, she had never set eyes on either of them when she applied (and afaik has never been inside either as this happened during lockdown).

Tiffin is miles away from them and very difficult to get to, the school she's chosen is at the end of their road, all her friends from primary school were going there and her siblings attended it and were doing very well indeed.

Everyone in the family felt the local school was the best choice. I explained to my friend that I did feel there were some advantages to the other schools, but also said her dd could move at sixth form if necessary and I fully understood it wasn't great to put the family to such financial stretch. My friend spoke to another friend of mine with a dd at SPGS who agreed hers sounded like a sensible choice. It was a dilemma but so far there are no regrets.

I know if my friend were to read this thread, she'd feel even more justified in her decision.

I don't think it sounds weird either @ForeverbyJudyBlume and it will have boosted her DD's confidence to know that she did get offers at those places even if, ultimately, they decided against sending her to them. Also, doing the prep for them will have been a good stretching exercise at a time when most primary school children weren't having the best schooling experience.

I don't know if I'd have made the same choice but actually if the journey to Tiffin was going to be very long and the fees at SPGS a stretch, there's probably a lot to be said for what they've opted for. She's clearly very bright and motivated and will probably thrive wherever she goes.

Old palace If the DD in question went to a “standard comp” in the vicinity of Tiffin then the chances were it wasn’t a standard comp at all. Whether it was Coombe or one of the LBRUT comps they all achieve similar academic results in their top sets to private schools, particularly if you account for the degree of selectivity for SPGS, LEH and G&L which is so extreme that parents seem to perceive equally good private schools like the GDST and KGS etc. It is perfectly rational to consider your student will not suffer academically from that decision. These comps are heavily oversubscribed (by in some cases 1000 first preferences) and many parents apply to private schools as insurance whilst hoping they can use that money in other ways to support family life, without compromising academic chances. There are many first time buyers in these schools who would not have gone private if they could have got a place in a Coombe or Waldegrave.

Equally some parents chose private over state because of the wider opportunities they provide in sport and the arts. In that Tiffin feels particularly Spartan in comparison to both private and other state.

My DDs peers at the state comps did just as well in terms of uni entrance. They perhaps faced a few more challenges with crowd control and had to be be more self sufficient in getting deep into the syllabus (not necessarily a bad thing) but even at the private schools crowd control can be a challenge with some cohorts - and private schools are not necessarily as practised at responding.

As to state versus private outside the London bubble, perhaps look at some where like North Yorkshire where the private schools tend to be for those who either don’t want their child to be with children from all backgrounds or know they are going to need more support but there are state alternatives that are better performing particularly in toP sets. Actually those motivations still apply in terms of some private schools in West London though most have engaged in an academic arms race. Some private schools perform worse than their comprehensive neighbours - I don’t want to name names as they still are good schools who do a good job for their cohorts.

@ForeverbyJudyBlume

I don't think it sounds weird and sad at all, my friend is neither of those things.

Tiffin is miles away from them and very difficult to get to, the school she's chosen is at the end of their road, all her friends from primary school were going there, her siblings attended it and were doing very well indeed.

Her dd found old Tiffin and SPGS papers during lockdown, practised alone, asked if she could apply - her mum said yes and paid the application fees, thinking she probably wouldn't get in but if her dd wanted to try, why not? It was more of an academic game for her than desperately wanting to go to these particular schools, she had never set eyes on either of them when she applied (and afaik has never been inside either as this happened during lockdown).

Tiffin is miles away from them and very difficult to get to, the school she's chosen is at the end of their road, all her friends from primary school were going there and her siblings attended it and were doing very well indeed.

Everyone in the family felt the local school was the best choice. I explained to my friend that I did feel there were some advantages to the other schools, but also said her dd could move at sixth form if necessary and I fully understood it wasn't great to put the family to such financial stretch. My friend spoke to another friend of mine with a dd at SPGS who agreed hers sounded like a sensible choice. It was a dilemma but so far there are no regrets.

I know if my friend were to read this thread, she'd feel even more justified in her decision.

I think you're mis-understanding me.

My DD goes to a school with 50% bursary take up, very down to Earth community feel despite being private, a world away from SPGS or Tiffin. I agree you send the girl to the best school for her, regardless of its ranking.

But I think it's BIZARRE that a family would have a DD who wanted to apply as a 'game' , pay Reg fees, go through the interview process then reject their places? That might not sound weird to you , but it does to me.

95%+ accept their offer of a place at SPGS, so you can understand its a little odd to go through all that as a 'game'. I can't imagine doing that with my DD.

Each to their own ...

The comp wasn't in the vicinity of Tiffin, that's why they decided against Tiffin and it wasn't any of the ones you name. I know a teacher there and tbh it sounds like a challenging school that I wouldn't choose for my own dc. But if you have two other children there doing extremely well and it's at the end of your road and you can't really afford a private school then your view will be informed by that.

Just to upset everyone even further I have another friend who sent two dd to SPGS who regrets his decision, thinks it was a total waste of money and is always bemoaning what very ordinary career paths they're following. Which is not to criticise SPGS, I'm sure it's a fabulous school, but it's not the answer to all ills and many people will not go there and still thrive.

@Oldpalace123 you really can't imagine why a girl who knew that there was a high likelihood she'd go to the same local school as her siblings might want to prove to herself (and perhaps others) that she could get into the likes of SPGS and/or Tiffin, even if she and her parents probably already knew it wouldn't be affordable/practical for her to take up the place?

OldPalace My DD basically did just what findingthewords suggests. She wasn’t in the U.K. school system, but in a lovely supportive school that had absolutely no focus on a selective system, in fact it was against their whole child focused ethos. We had no clue about the competitive culture of tutoring here. She worked her way through the parts of syllabus she hadn’t covered because she enjoyed it not because of any sort of school, peer or parental pressure. I remember she particularly enjoyed the Practise paper for the schools who including reasoning challenges rather than tests of knowledge (a couple that had I - with a business background and her teachers took a while to work out!) She sat the exams because she was interested to find out if she could get in and she enjoyed the process. It was a surprise when she did and she certainly chose not to go to SPGS because she was used to being treated as an individual valued for her wide qualities and did not enjoy what she felt was commoditised / patronised by a school that was looking at her as academic rather than a sum of her qualities and ability. She had a rollicking argument about North Korea’s position in the arms situation with the US by the Head of the school she went to which convinced her she would be valued as a person not an academic achiever. (The reality was a bit different when the Head changed). However if she had had the option of a state school that wasn’t in special measures she would have been guided by those same considerations.

When you apply to SPGS, it really isn’t about just “paying the fee,” There are various forms to fill in. You have to request a reference from the primary school and there is often a fee for this (per school). You have to get yourself to the pre-test exam (about 900 dit this). Then you have to wait and see if you are one of the 500 invited to sit the actual exam. The exams take a full day . Then you have to wait and see if you are one of the 200 or so invite back for interview for the 105 places.

In other words, it’s quite a drawn out process and takes investment and stamina from the child and parent at each stage. There no such thing as pay the fee and Bob’s your uncle . The mum here would have had to take the child to the school at least three times; talk to the primary for a reference, request and complete the forms as an absolute minimum. I suspect this mum was a lot more invested than she likes to make out.

There’s always the type of people who claim, “Oh you know I just rolled out of bed and hey presto... what do you know.... I got into Oxford. Only applied at the last minute for a laugh...”

Yeah right.

actually this would have been lockdown year so the second round exam and interviews were all online. The students only went in once for the first round test (which was also the only opportunity to see inside the school). Our state primary didn't give specific references - there wasn't even the option to pay for them - they just sent the same report to all secondary schools. It really wasn't a huge palaver (unless parents chose to make it so)

@renamer

There’s always the type of people who claim, “Oh you know I just rolled out of bed and hey presto... what do you know.... I got into Oxford. Only applied at the last minute for a laugh...”

Yeah right.

I don't see how that is relevant here. No-one is saying the child in question didn't make an effort, just that she got in and had the temerity to chose a local state school instead, which seems to rile a lot of people who are paying private school fees.

Of course the girl can choose whatever school she wants and one of mine didn’t choose SPGS. That’s a non-issue. I’m just trying to imagine how a 10 / 11 year old can ‘apply by herself’ to any school.

I think Forever above has explained that quite clearly. In fact I'd say the kind of girls who get into SPGS are just the type to take the initiative themselves though of course some parental involvement is required.

How would a ten year-old living Kingston eat even know SPGS existed unless an adult ;parent) told them about it?

I suppose my daughter must have also ‘applied by herself’ then because she found and had a go at the couple if sample papers off the website?

Er no. As if I’d let a ten year-old apply to a school with fees. I would not have let her go through a process for a school we were not ultimately prepared to pay the fees for. It’s the parents decision ultimately. And I’m not sure what being a refugee has to do with anything. My husband was a refugee. I had a very poor education in another country, but I guess I did ok. So what? Doesn’t mean I would send my kids to school where I come from.

@renamer

When you apply to SPGS, it really isn’t about just “paying the fee,” There are various forms to fill in. You have to request a reference from the primary school and there is often a fee for this (per school). You have to get yourself to the pre-test exam (about 900 dit this). Then you have to wait and see if you are one of the 500 invited to sit the actual exam. The exams take a full day . Then you have to wait and see if you are one of the 200 or so invite back for interview for the 105 places.

In other words, it’s quite a drawn out process and takes investment and stamina from the child and parent at each stage. There no such thing as pay the fee and Bob’s your uncle . The mum here would have had to take the child to the school at least three times; talk to the primary for a reference, request and complete the forms as an absolute minimum. I suspect this mum was a lot more invested than she likes to make out.

This is my point exactly.

If mum thinks that constitutes a 'game' to play with her DD, then she's completely nuts and I feel sorry for her.

[quote findingthewords]@Oldpalace123 you really can't imagine why a girl who knew that there was a high likelihood she'd go to the same local school as her siblings might want to prove to herself (and perhaps others) that she could get into the likes of SPGS and/or Tiffin, even if she and her parents probably already knew it wouldn't be affordable/practical for her to take up the place?[/quote]
Er no? Unless the schools had some huge Nirvana like status within the household, which sort of contradicts your whole point.

Why do they care so much about a place they don't want to go??

My DD is in a 3-18 school, she's very bright (so teachers tell me), but she nor I have interest in 'proving' ourselves capable for SPGS or any other school, for 11+ entry. Can't believe you don't see how weird this is, proving ourselves to whom? The evil class system?

It sounds just plain weird.

Believe it or not, even folk outside the prep school system have heard of schools like SPGS. I can't imagine why you think it's so weird that a bright, driven kid from a family that is clearly invested in education wouldn't have thought "well, I wonder if I could do that... and asked her parents'.

The intellectual snobbery that lies behind the idea that it is unthinkable to turn down a place at a particular school is of course going to motivate some people - not masses obvs but some - to want to apply and see what all the fuss is about. Also bear in mind, as I said up-thread, that in the lockdown period the application process was the only way to get a look at any of these schools.

I don’t know this kid, and I’m in no way invested in her story beyond the fact that I think it’s odd that people on this thread seem to feel slighted by her the idea of her wanting to have a go at getting into these schools and then turning down the places. It’s as if her achievement somehow belittles the school or their child’s achievements in getting in or whatever else. I don’t understand why anyone else would care. She wanted to try, her parents were able to facilitate her doing so, and she now knows that she’s every bit as smart at the girls who go there but it’s not really practical financially for her to take up a place – why would anyone resent or question that. The fact that her mother was herself a refugee is only relevant, I suppose, in that she will have had to work very hard to get to Cambridge, probably didn’t benefit from all the kinds of privilege that often help to get in there and therefore perhaps values doing things without what she perceives to be an additional leg-up.

Incidentally, I personally have nothing against private education, I have one DC at a selective private and another at a comprehensive – both excellent schools. But I do question the motives of people who are so ‘incredulous’ at this child’s achievement and her family’s decision.

@findingthewords

Believe it or not, even folk outside the prep school system have heard of schools like SPGS. I can't imagine why you think it's so weird that a bright, driven kid from a family that is clearly invested in education wouldn't have thought "well, I wonder if I could do that... and asked her parents'.

The intellectual snobbery that lies behind the idea that it is unthinkable to turn down a place at a particular school is of course going to motivate some people - not masses obvs but some - to want to apply and see what all the fuss is about. Also bear in mind, as I said up-thread, that in the lockdown period the application process was the only way to get a look at any of these schools.

I don’t know this kid, and I’m in no way invested in her story beyond the fact that I think it’s odd that people on this thread seem to feel slighted by her the idea of her wanting to have a go at getting into these schools and then turning down the places. It’s as if her achievement somehow belittles the school or their child’s achievements in getting in or whatever else. I don’t understand why anyone else would care. She wanted to try, her parents were able to facilitate her doing so, and she now knows that she’s every bit as smart at the girls who go there but it’s not really practical financially for her to take up a place – why would anyone resent or question that. The fact that her mother was herself a refugee is only relevant, I suppose, in that she will have had to work very hard to get to Cambridge, probably didn’t benefit from all the kinds of privilege that often help to get in there and therefore perhaps values doing things without what she perceives to be an additional leg-up.

Incidentally, I personally have nothing against private education, I have one DC at a selective private and another at a comprehensive – both excellent schools. But I do question the motives of people who are so ‘incredulous’ at this child’s achievement and her family’s decision.

people on this thread seem to feel slighted by her the idea of her wanting to have a go at getting into these schools and then turning down the places. It’s as if her achievement somehow belittles the school or their child’s achievements in getting in or whatever else

Er, not from me. I really don't care parents do, I didn't start this thread @findingthewords I just think its weird a DC applying just to 'prove to herself', off her own bat, with her mum in cahoots, both seeing as unthinkable of attending, but to prove themselves. That screams of insecurity to me, and a whole lot of inferiority issues. I keep asking you, but you ignore the question, why do they care so much???

I just don't get it. You see it as an achievement to prove you can get into SPGS, I just see that as very sad. I feel for this girl, that she has to prove to herself she's 'good enough'.

95% of SPGS offers are accepted, 5 or 6 girls don't take up a place. It's hardly common is it?

I just asked DD, she thinks its really really weird, I won't tell you her exact words, but words to that effect She also said exactly what I asked you, why does she care so much? Especially if these schools are overrated, blah blah blah...

The fact that her mother was herself a refugee is only relevant, I suppose, in that she will have had to work very hard to get to Cambridge, probably didn’t benefit from all the kinds of privilege that often help to get in there and therefore perhaps values doing things without what she perceives to be an additional leg-up

That's very patronising, you can be a refugee and come from a wealthy, educated background you know. Christ.

renamer Was that aimed at me? Are you implying I must be lying when I say that my daughter applied from a school that was in no way geared up for it but still managed to get offered places because the schools recognised her ability, even though she had not been tutored to the extent other applicants would have been. Actually these schools do appreciate when pupils have a diversity of experience and raw ability as opposed to being crammed, as the Head of one school put it “It is great to have these children who have lived abroad they bring so many different perspectives”.

As to Oxbridge you clearly do not understand the selection process there either. Of course nobody rolls out of bed and gets a place but if they have read widely and have the ability they demonstrably do not have to have been force fed Oxbridge prep at a private school. Indeed tutors constantly complain about applicants who cannot step out of the box and express ideas and thinking that comes from wider reading they have not already been force fed. The teachers at these schools will tell you how regularly they get that feedback.

You are obviously extremely riled about this so I think we'll just have to agree to differ (though I could also randomly drag my teen DD's view into the mix in order to settle the argument ). I've explained very clearly why I imagine this particular person applied, it really does not seem at all odd to me for all the reasons I've set out.

All this shock and awe at someone daring to try to get into a difficult school and then choosing not to take up a place, smacks of an uneasiness about the fact some of the kids at the local state schools are every bit as academic as the kids getting into the ‘top schools’. Having had experience of good state schools and good private schools, I’d say the attainment of the students at the top is really not very different, which might make for uncomfortable reading for those shelling out vast amounts of money for private schools (and, as I say, I’m in that category too so this is not about me feeling self-satisfied). I think one of the reasons (NB one of the reasons, not the only reason) behind investing in private schooling can be the belief that the bright young minds of our offspring couldn’t possibly be nourished by a regular school because they are just on a different plane intellectually. Stories like the one we’ve been discussing burst that bubble, which I suspect is why the person who posted it was met with such ‘astonishment’. I'm sure it's much more comfortable to claim that the family in question is REALLY WEIRD or 'completely nuts' or that the story just isn't true

I have no reason to ask the SPGS for the stats for how many children do not take up places offered but I do know of three girls who turned down places last year - it seems very odd that I'd know almost half or more girls who didn't take up places. And the emails they sent after offers day chasing for responses would indicate that not everyone snapped up the spots immediately.

And as for my comment about the mother's refugee's status, of course refugees can come from wealthy families but you will be aware there are many different kinds of privilege and I don't see how it is in any way patronising to suggest that refugees generally have had to overcome obstacles that others haven't. I think you are just trying to undermine my arguments by suggesting I'm saying something outrageous. Anyway, i'm going to step away from the hysteria.

No it wasn’t aimed at you, Emily.

The poster giving the anecdote of the friend’s daughter who applied herself to Tiffin and SPGS just reminded me of when my DD was in the waiting room for the SPGS interview, that’s all. There was a mother there regaling everyone - “Oh, my DD dragged me here you know. Yes she’s sooo driven - I don’t know where she gets it from.”

Meanwhile in real life we all know what happens is - Parents research feasible schools. Parents tell child about x,y,z schools. Child agrees to have a go. Child does sample papers on website. Parent applies and pays fees and considers logistics if child was given an offer. Parent takes child to exams / interviews. Why pretend anything else?