Why on earth would anyone reject SPGS??

[newsibling123]

I've been reading through many threads with mums wondering between SPGS and G&L.

While G&L is a great school, why on Earth would there be a conflict in choosing SPGS, they applied in the first place, its not like they got cold called by the school and their DD offered a place!

If we applied to SPGS, we'd put G&L as back up, but if we had two offers there's no question we'd choose SPGS. The only way I can imagine conflict is if G&L offered a scholarship, or DD really didn't want to go SPGS, even then we would try and show her what a brilliant opportunity it was.

I know one chooses the best school for the DC, etc etc, but I can't imagine any scenario, all things being equal, how G&L would be 'better'. If DD was heavily tutored and parent was worried she'd struggle at SPGS now they have offer in hand, then G&L doesn't come to mind as an alternative to that! One of the less intense GDST schools or somewhere with broader selection, less high academic like Portland or More House maybe?

Don't mean to offend anyone here, choosing school is tough, but I just don't get this at all...It's like getting a place at Oxford and choosing Durham

[quote Zodlebud]@newsibling123 Actually a Cambridge graduate (Nat Sci) with a PhD who went to a bog standard comprehensive. Have chosen a private education for my DC as I feel it’s right for them and we can afford it.

Unfortunately I feel your mindset is the same as a small minority of SW London parents who cannot see past the blinkered notion that only SPGS is the best and cannot possibly comprehend the many and numerous reasons previous posters have given as to why it is not.

Take a look at Brampton Manor Academy. 55 Oxbridge offers in 2019 and it’s FREE.[/quote]
your mindset is the same as a small minority of SW London parents who cannot see past the blinkered notion that only SPGS is the best and cannot possibly comprehend the many and numerous reasons previous posters have given as to why it is not.

Oh FFS, Why it's not the best for their DD, which I concede!!! Not that SPGS isn't the best school.

Its strange, you seem to boast about a Cambridge doctorate, but see no contradiction in me singling out the best performing school as ...the best, like you name drop Cambridge.

My other half has a PhD, secured funding from the UK research council, which was the real achievement, any distinction masters student can get on a PhD program but you felt you had to say PhD from Cambridge...

Thinking SPGS is the best school is a world away from thinking your DD would do best at SPGS when she clearly doesn't fit.

I think Cambridge is the best uni in the UK, but if my DD ends up South Bank University, I'll still be proud of her, but I'll still think the best uni is Cambridge. There is no contradiction there.

I think you're confusing me with some cold bitch who demands success from their offspring at the expense of their happiness.

Brampton is one of the most deprived areas in the country, for those kids getting into Oxbridge really means life changing chances, like it did for you.

Many of the posts on this thread are said on a position of white middle classed privileged , for many non-white students , students on bursaries from working class backgrounds, SPGS can be life changing as they are in the best position to receive an education that is recognised as first class. They need that extra reputational sheen coming from a disadvantaged background. Many posts are completely tone deaf to the privilege to be choosing in the first place. For some it's a once in a lifetime opportunity. Coming from a state school and making an academic success of your life, surely you can see that?

@InkySquid

I had an offer from Cambridge but chose to put Nottingham as my first choice. I only applied in the first place to please other people.

The open days (with overnight stays) we went to as I guess some sort of widening participation thing cemented the desire not to attend even if I was ambivalent before.

Cambridge's acceptance percentage is lower than SPGS.

@Hellocatshome

I feel like we need a topic for private school, this is one of many threads I have opened in Secondary Education and not understood a word of the OP

That's a good idea.

With a sub-topic of 'London day schools'.

So many threads in 'Secondary Education' are about these, although they are a very niche area of interest.

Well that went downhill quickly

Still there’s nothing quite like a bun fight about blowing £30k a year on elite schooling.

OP - can I explain it to tog like this -

• You do not get into university or get a job based on the % of A* or whatever in your school. Don’t worry about that. You get in based on YOUR results.

• Yes, SPGS gets a higher % into Oxbridge each year. But, all things being equal, those same girls would no doubt have got in from G&L (or for that matter, a whole range of other schools). SPGS does not have a magic powder they sprinkle over students to get them into Oxbridge.

• As universities are increasingly keen to boost their widening participation stats year on year, there is an argument that applying from a more prolific independent school such as SPGS, Eton etc is actually becoming a disadvantage (eg. admissions tutors rolling their eyes thinking, “not another one” etc). This will be true for most selective independents obviously, but some schools are particularly “known” and their elitist reputation is starting to work against them.

• Do you actually think there still be a tangible difference in teaching between a school that gets 97% A-A and one that gets 98.5%? It’s like splitting hairs at that level! Even if it was 80% A-A on a school, as long as your child’s results are within that 80%, then what’s the issue? The average school in the U.K. gets about 18% A*-A! All this fuss over a few percentage points between two schools. In the scheme of education across the nation, the difference is utterly meaningless.

• At SPGS there is no IB. G&L attracts a lot of Euro families who prefer IB because it’s more familiar to them.

• Of course, many families already have children at particular schools and that’s why another of their children may go there. It makes life easier.

By the way, I know for a fact there are loads of DC at Latymer Upper who were accepted at SPGS but obviously didn’t go for their own various reasons.

Gosh what great advertising this thread is for the schools concerned.

^“Are you flat Earther who only believes what you see for Gods sake...? Or those ignorant dangerous knuckle draggers have never got Covid so concluded it doesn't exist?? “^

@newsibling123 I wasn’t name dropping my university (and as you have incorrectly interpreted what I wrote incorrectly I should clarify I am a Cambridge graduate but got my PhD from a Russell Group University), but merely providing evidence as to how I am neither of the types of person you accused me of being.

^”for many non-white students , students on bursaries from working class backgrounds, SPGS can be life changing as they are in the best position to receive an education that is recognised as first class. They need that extra reputational sheen coming from a disadvantaged background.”^

This comment leaves me slightly horrified too. Hard working students from poorer backgrounds NEED extra reputational sheen????? No. They need to be given the same opportunities to succeed in their academic life as every single other child, state or privately educated . Only those children with motivated parents are going to even think about the possibility of a bursary application. You are seriously disillusioned if you think that the bursary schemes offered by independent schools are helping the most disadvantaged. Those children who not only go to school but are also carers for younger siblings whilst the adults in their life are out working several jobs to just keep a roof over their heads. They don’t need bursaries at private schools, a long commute to get there and “sheen”. They need proper after school provisions for their siblings where they can receive a decent meal and free up time to study and have access to an actual desk and quiet place to work. Oh, and access to WiFi and a device to access it - something most of us take for granted.

I am moving away from this topic as you are totally out of touch with any kind of reality of the world of education or the issues faced by many many academically brilliant children.

I was at university with a lot of ex SPGS girls. Not a single one of them had good mental health. Just saying.

I don't think it's helpful for parents to obsess about this stuff too much. You might not think that you're putting pressure on your dc, but they will almost certainly feel the weight of your expectations, and not in a good way.

The days when you were more likely to get into Oxbridge based on the fact you went to a certain school are loooong gone. No school will “get you into Cambridge.” There is no inside tricks or advice SPGS (or G&L) can give you that is not freely available in the uni websites or online. From any of these schools, the student will be seen as ‘privileged’ and their string of top grades will be regarded as less impressive than somebody from a non-selective school. My son got into Cambridge from LU and he would say it was the things he did over and above the curriculum and had nothing to do with the school which interested the interviewers and what got him in. They contextualise everything. From a state school, three A* will be proof you are an outlier. From SPGS of a school like it, be prepared to do a LOT more - essay competitions; write a book; get something published; you name it - but you will need to be prepared to do significantly more to be competitive.

@AlexaShutUp In fairness, it varies so much between individuals. The SPGS girl I was closest to during my undergrad days (at O) was one of the happiest and most well adjusted girls I knew. Fantastic work-life balance, very funny, and so kind to me as a profoundly shy undergrad with major health issues. She got a First.

[quote Innocenta]@AlexaShutUp In fairness, it varies so much between individuals. The SPGS girl I was closest to during my undergrad days (at O) was one of the happiest and most well adjusted girls I knew. Fantastic work-life balance, very funny, and so kind to me as a profoundly shy undergrad with major health issues. She got a First. [/quote]
Yes of course, I'm not saying that all will end up with mental health issues at all. But those that I knew certainly blamed the school for a lot of their difficulties. That was a long time ago though, they have probably improved since then.

Regardless, I think the OP's approach to education sounds very unhealthy.

Quite interested in this as currently thinking of choosing Emanuel over G&L. Thoughts?

@amal0

By the way, I know for a fact there are loads of DC at Latymer Upper who were accepted at SPGS but obviously didn’t go for their own various reasons.

How many is "loads" exactly? SPGS only has about 5-6 offers declined each year. Are all 5 of them at LU?

@Zodlebud

^“Are you flat Earther who only believes what you see for Gods sake...? Or those ignorant dangerous knuckle draggers have never got Covid so concluded it doesn't exist?? “^

@newsibling123 I wasn’t name dropping my university (and as you have incorrectly interpreted what I wrote incorrectly I should clarify I am a Cambridge graduate but got my PhD from a Russell Group University), but merely providing evidence as to how I am neither of the types of person you accused me of being.

^”for many non-white students , students on bursaries from working class backgrounds, SPGS can be life changing as they are in the best position to receive an education that is recognised as first class. They need that extra reputational sheen coming from a disadvantaged background.”^

This comment leaves me slightly horrified too. Hard working students from poorer backgrounds NEED extra reputational sheen????? No. They need to be given the same opportunities to succeed in their academic life as every single other child, state or privately educated . Only those children with motivated parents are going to even think about the possibility of a bursary application. You are seriously disillusioned if you think that the bursary schemes offered by independent schools are helping the most disadvantaged. Those children who not only go to school but are also carers for younger siblings whilst the adults in their life are out working several jobs to just keep a roof over their heads. They don’t need bursaries at private schools, a long commute to get there and “sheen”. They need proper after school provisions for their siblings where they can receive a decent meal and free up time to study and have access to an actual desk and quiet place to work. Oh, and access to WiFi and a device to access it - something most of us take for granted.

I am moving away from this topic as you are totally out of touch with any kind of reality of the world of education or the issues faced by many many academically brilliant children.

At my daughters school in South Croydon, as well as wealthy families from around the area of leafy South Croydon and beyond, there's a large(ish) portion of girls from ethnic minorities and girls from 'ordinary' backgrounds . All of their parents value private education as they recognise their daughters face additional discrimination, private education can 'level things up' for them. So they do actually need that 'sheen' if you like, when you look at the barriers they face in employment etc. Many black parents I speak to were worried about discrimination and low expectation for their DC in the state sector. Didn't Diane Abbott get crucified for doing the same with her son and City of London boys. Most working class families be they black or white aren't in the position you describe, but they want a brilliant education for their kids and bursaries are allowing them to do so. Around 50% of girls receive some form of bursary help from the Whitgift foundation. The foundation does work in the community and with local charities, so its not only students who benefit. Over 70% of leavers from Old Palace go onto Russell Group universities Bursaries from the Whitgift are transforming girls lives down here in Croydon, of course these schemes only help the bright children of motivated parents /parent and not the most disadvantaged, but that's something to be celebrated? It's a bit patronising to switch from talking about non-white pupils and working class Londoners to kids in abject poverty caring for younger siblings with parents working several jobs. Of course the poorest need help, but I'm not expecting that to be met by Old Palace, never mind west london private schools. I expect our inept government to be doing something.

As an SPS (boys though) parent: it is not what it's cracked up to be. Their marketing is awesome, but from the inside it is not always sunny uplands.

'it's like getting an offer from Oxford and choosing Durham'.

I don't know why, OP. Maybe because they got the impression that SPGS may be chosen by families who are massively up their own asses? People are allowed to make their own choices for their own reasons.

This thread has reminded me of a whole host of reasons we left the private sector at prep (to extent we home educated for part of Y6 due to bullying and eating disorders rife in the school) and when dipped toe in waters again for potential sixth form and DD got offered a place at Westminster decided to stay put in state sector.

DD has lovely kind friends whose parents chose the school in partnership with their children as the school suited their child. All DD’s class except a select few have jobs and are coherent capable individuals compared to any of DD’s friends I meet from her prep era who seem to have gone off the rails.

Quite a few years ago now but we picked the school which best suited our dd and tbh the rest of our family. The kids really wanted to go to the same school and so we rejected SPGS for co-Ed as we also had a ds so they could go to the same school.
When dd started at secondary school one of her best friends there had also turned down her place at SPGS - her reason was that they had “made her cry in the interview” (I don’t think that they MADE her cry - I think that she just cried from the pressure).

More selective upon entry = better overall results. Reputation as being most selective = prestige = more likely to have offers accepted by the cleverest girls, who are already have the ability/on the path to getting the best results. And so it continues. It's the intake rather than the school itself doing something exceptional with academics. SPGS may well be a better school, but this can't be found in the grades because this is predetermined by the intake.

I'm not sure this point is being digested.

I think many parents realise this during the process, and you might too. You put those girls with multiple offers at any one of the options in hand and they will get the same grades; and the process reveals the differences in the schools and helps you decide where would be most suitable for your child. Your DD is an individual and once you realise they will reach their academic potential at any of your options, you look for the real differences: the things league tables don't tell you.

You could argue that the schools with a reputation as a 'back-up', but still getting a high number of top grades, are doing just as well, if not better, at helping the pupils reach their academic potential.

More selective upon entry = better overall results.

Exactly. It’s a self-fulfilling prophecy. If you only take in the high achieving kids (with motivated educated parents with massive resources) then you’re going to churn out kids with the top grades.

If your child is the sort that will get an offer from SPGS then academically they’re going to do well at any school their parents consider for them, and parents can afford to take a more holistic approach.

DD is another example who turned SPGS down (name change as easily identifiable). She had her heart set on another school (not G&L or LU) from the start and, icing on the cake, was really put off by the interview.
Until the deadline I tried to convince her to take the place as genuinely thought she would be a good fit. I must admit I did initially struggle with her decision but in hindsight, she was right, for quite a few reason. In particular being a big fish in a small pond will likely give her an advantage when applying to university. It was recently confirmed by a friend whose 2 DDs were at SPGS and didn’t get into Oxbridge as they were middle of the pack (I believe DD would have been middle of the pack at best at SPGS so definitely the right decision for her).

It's never long before the 'plenty of ordinary families....' argument is made.

No. Anyone who has sufficient additional income to pay day school fees in London is by definition NOT ordinary. If by ordinary you mean earning a mean or median income.

And paying your own way i.e. housing costs, transport, childcare.

That isn't meant as a private-bashing thing but honestly, this stuff gets my goat. Are people genuinely so socially unaware that they can't work this out for themselves??

@amal0

The days when you were more likely to get into Oxbridge based on the fact you went to a certain school are loooong gone. No school will “get you into Cambridge.” There is no inside tricks or advice SPGS (or G&L) can give you that is not freely available in the uni websites or online. From any of these schools, the student will be seen as ‘privileged’ and their string of top grades will be regarded as less impressive than somebody from a non-selective school. My son got into Cambridge from LU and he would say it was the things he did over and above the curriculum and had nothing to do with the school which interested the interviewers and what got him in. They contextualise everything. From a state school, three A* will be proof you are an outlier. From SPGS of a school like it, be prepared to do a LOT more - essay competitions; write a book; get something published; you name it - but you will need to be prepared to do significantly more to be competitive.

I really was going to step away from this thread, but this...

Congrats to your son, but your speaking from a great privileged public school talking about 'The days when you were more likely to get into Oxbridge based on the fact you went to a certain school are loooong gone'

I do hope you're being ironic.

www.spectator.co.uk/article/the-oxbridge-files