Why on earth would anyone reject SPGS??

[newsibling123]

I've been reading through many threads with mums wondering between SPGS and G&L.

While G&L is a great school, why on Earth would there be a conflict in choosing SPGS, they applied in the first place, its not like they got cold called by the school and their DD offered a place!

If we applied to SPGS, we'd put G&L as back up, but if we had two offers there's no question we'd choose SPGS. The only way I can imagine conflict is if G&L offered a scholarship, or DD really didn't want to go SPGS, even then we would try and show her what a brilliant opportunity it was.

I know one chooses the best school for the DC, etc etc, but I can't imagine any scenario, all things being equal, how G&L would be 'better'. If DD was heavily tutored and parent was worried she'd struggle at SPGS now they have offer in hand, then G&L doesn't come to mind as an alternative to that! One of the less intense GDST schools or somewhere with broader selection, less high academic like Portland or More House maybe?

Don't mean to offend anyone here, choosing school is tough, but I just don't get this at all...It's like getting a place at Oxford and choosing Durham

@newsibling123
A quick Google search will show you the academic performance of the two schools at the most recent sitting of public examinations (2019). Attached.
While I agree that St. Paul's is always top, the differences between the two are very small and not really relevant on an individual level.
In which case: yes, sports, drama, other extracurricular activities, and considerations such as pastoral care and atmosphere become all-important in the correct choice for your child.
Hence why some choose Godolphin over St. Paul's.

NB. The post above is specifically addressing the OP's original post.
@Zodlebud 's points above are incredibly relevant.

We have a local school on a par with SPGS and both my DD and DiL rejected it. In fact my DiL said she would run away from home if she was sent there. A school has to suit the child. We rejected two other schools in favour of UCS for our son and it was absolutely the right decision.

We turned down SPGS - went for it partly out of curiosity if dd would get in. During lockdown so not much chance to visit/see it in operation. Dd already a type to trend to worry so decided it wasn't for her and I'd rather she was in a more mixed cohort with emphasis on the wider experience than academics.

I cannot understand the absolute hype and hysteria over issues like this, nor the lack of critical thinking commonly applied.

All these schools principally get fantastic results because they are super, super selective. The difference in grades attained by their students would probably not be statistically significant when controlling for other variables known to affect academic attainment.

Pick a school based on best fit for your child's personality. Although how you establish that I do not know really. Certainly not from hearsay, self-selected reviews, and tours/ open days.

OP I really worry about your post. The one thing lacking from your comments is the holistic understanding of the child. Just because a child gets and offer from a school and you can afford the fees doesn’t make it the right school for your child. Perhaps you didn’t like the experience during the admissions process, perhaps your child didn’t get a good feel, perhaps you feel that on reflection the ultra competitive environment of a school entirely full of high achieving girls isn’t for your daughter, perhaps you realise your daughter wouldn’t be at the top of the year and even though she’s clearly very smart her mental health and resilience would be better in a school where she might be closer to the top of the year.

I’ve never had interest in St Pauls for all those reasons. Having it on the CV is of zero interest to me and I feel the same way about NLCS which is probably a close competitor. The academics can’t be disrupted but what do some of these schools do to their girls mentally to get them

Standards at Oxford are hugely better than at Durham. Oxford teaches harder courses, provides more hours/smaller groups of teaching/marking, leads to very markedly higher graduate earnings, gives a far higher chance of 1st class honours/of funded postgraduate study. And Oxford is certainly harder to get in - the very weakest students at Oxford [possibly excluding the odd choral scholar, boat race ringer, etc] would be well above average at Durham.

Standards at these two schools are near as damnit identical.
Before grade inflation went bonkers, the two had almost identical proportions of A* proportions (52% vs 46%) - so the top 46% at G&L were objectively stronger than the bottom 48% at SPGS.

It's trivially easy to imagine geographical, cultural, or a whole host of other considerations leading a parent to prefer G&L to SPGS.

Some of this is true but some of it is utter rubbish.
I've worked and studied alongside many grads of both universities.
Yes - Oxford in many subjects ( probably not all) has undoubtedly better teaching and the courses are more intense.
But in terms of the level of student, the top 50% at Durham would cope perfectly well at Oxford. A few might have turned down Oxford, most have probably been rejected. But that rejection is very often down to something subjective or something that didn't quite work out on the day.
For the genius or really outstanding mind Oxbridge is probably the right place. However for very bright but not utterly outstanding students, there is very little difference between the intelligence levels of students at Oxbridge and at Durham. In fact in terms of career outcomes, in my (admittedly anecdotal!) experience, the Durham students tend to do better and earn more and by and large have better people skills.

@Flamingpantoufles

I'm baffled by your bafflement, OP. There are so many reasons why people might apply but not take up an offer at the school. Anecdotally, we applied because DD was encouraged to and the application process gave us some insight into a school we knew little about. We were very impressed by it and it's obviously an excellent school but there are many excellent schools out there and, in the end, DD chose another very academic but, we (and, more importantly, she) felt, more down-to-earth school, which she loves. For me, the fact that people get so carried away with the prestige of SPGS was quite a turn-off. There is very little difference in terms of outcome when it comes to choosing one very good school over another so for us is came down to a combination of child's preference, atmosphere, distance, cohort, fees etc.

@newsibling123 The only reason this would seem odd to you is if the main (or even only) criteria you use to pick a school is its league table ranking.

The difference in performance between all the top schools is tiny and largely down to selection rather than teaching. At an individual level it makes no difference to outcomes or the quality of ones education etc.

Therefore, for most parents who look at things holistically, there will be a wide range of other factors that influence which school might be 1st choice-- pastural care, ethos, environment, ability to do the IB, co-ed vs single sex, etc etc

Given that St Paul's Girls School has a very mixed reputation regarding the well-being of the girls / the attitudes of the parents, its surprising you find all of this so surprising really.

@runningpram

Standards at Oxford are hugely better than at Durham. Oxford teaches harder courses, provides more hours/smaller groups of teaching/marking, leads to very markedly higher graduate earnings, gives a far higher chance of 1st class honours/of funded postgraduate study. And Oxford is certainly harder to get in - the very weakest students at Oxford [possibly excluding the odd choral scholar, boat race ringer, etc] would be well above average at Durham.

Standards at these two schools are near as damnit identical.
Before grade inflation went bonkers, the two had almost identical proportions of A* proportions (52% vs 46%) - so the top 46% at G&L were objectively stronger than the bottom 48% at SPGS.

It's trivially easy to imagine geographical, cultural, or a whole host of other considerations leading a parent to prefer G&L to SPGS.

Some of this is true but some of it is utter rubbish.
I've worked and studied alongside many grads of both universities.
Yes - Oxford in many subjects ( probably not all) has undoubtedly better teaching and the courses are more intense.
But in terms of the level of student, the top 50% at Durham would cope perfectly well at Oxford. A few might have turned down Oxford, most have probably been rejected. But that rejection is very often down to something subjective or something that didn't quite work out on the day.
For the genius or really outstanding mind Oxbridge is probably the right place. However for very bright but not utterly outstanding students, there is very little difference between the intelligence levels of students at Oxbridge and at Durham. In fact in terms of career outcomes, in my (admittedly anecdotal!) experience, the Durham students tend to do better and earn more and by and large have better people skills.

I've already accepted there are legitimate reasons to reject SPGS for G&L, my only argument was when ALL THINGS ARE EQUAL, me (I) would choose SPGS every time.

in 2021 SPGS sent 41 girls to Oxbridge, this is a higher number even as a proportion when compared to G&L, so they simply aren't identical for leaver outcome. G&L leavers are a roll call of the best universities in the world, but its not as strong as SPGS.

SO you have a very clever girl, who has no preference, doesn't want an extensive IB choice, etc, its a like for like choice. I truly believe ( and of course this is based on my anecdotal, heavily influenced by certain family members , my own research, etc) a bright child is better off in SPGS.

Essentially I was poking fun when I said SPGS was Oxbridge and G&L was Durham , I'm sure you know Durham is the quintessential Oxbridge reject Uni. I was using it as an illustration of how I thought it was strange to pick G&L over SPGS AFTER applying for both. I know this was wrong, and I'm sorry I wrote it.

I'll sign off this thread now, I 'm sorry if I upset parents, and I accept I do place SPGS on a very high pedestal and we can argue forever about the rights and wrongs for that. I'm not going to budge on that. Lots of students struggle at university, they should have never really gone there, it's the same with SPGS, its more a case of wrong child at the school, rather than a failure of the school. Which after reading through this thread, I realize answers my question, the school is attractive for its results, but only suits a certain girl, and this realization might be after applying

Lastly for posters saying the children must be under so much pressure, yes that's true, but we try and shield her from our own wants and hang-ups, remember at least in our family, they are growing up with parents who have gone through this themselves with trying to get top marks in exams, degrees and postgraduate degrees and pushed themselves in careers and everything they do. We are well aware the damage of over ambition can have, my parents had it for me.

They have examples in their family who have become surgeon doctors, QC barristers and they know it's very hard work that gets them there, and it's not for everyone, and it's OK if its not for them, I tell my DD I love her every day and I always will. My nightmare would be for my DD at SPGS, unhappy and struggling just to please mum and dad, I'd never forgive myself.

I don’t disagree with your substantive point, @runningpram, but you’re out of date re choral scholarships. At Oxford, candidates apply for a choral scholarship before they apply for an academic place. If they don’t get offered an academic place, they don’t go — they’ve all qualified for that like any other candidate.

LOL at the chilled vibe of Cambridge - having been to Cambridge, it's not chilled remotely!

Things may have changed but in my day choral scholars - while they had officially been through the admissions procedure - were given a much easier ride, several I knew had missed the grades they had to reach by quite a way (ie Bs instead of As - no A* then - and Cs in other subjects) and still got in.

@ForeverbyJudyBlume - I guess everyone has different experiences. I went to Cambridge and found it really chilled!

@newsibling123 So the title of your post probably should have been, “I would really like my DD to go to SPGS as I think it’s great (even though I have never set foot inside there).”

As opposed to basically saying if anyone else’s daughter gets a place but doesn’t accept it then you’re bonkers.

[quote Zodlebud]@newsibling123 So the title of your post probably should have been, “I would really like my DD to go to SPGS as I think it’s great (even though I have never set foot inside there).”

As opposed to basically saying if anyone else’s daughter gets a place but doesn’t accept it then you’re bonkers.[/quote]
Wasn't going to reply anymore, but you asked....

I'm hardly the only person who thinks SPGS is the best school in London for christs sake @Zodlebud

My OP should have read 'Why apply to SPGS if you have doubts about going'

Unlike your reply, I did get some informative answers.

I've never set foot inside Harvard or MIT but I know they're two of the best universities on the planet.

Are you flat Earther who only believes what you see for Gods sake...? Or those ignorant dangerous knuckle draggers have never got Covid so concluded it doesn't exist??

That's me out of this pointless debate about people not accepting some people take the measured view SPGS is currently the best school, hardly controversial is it? ...though you wouldn't think it reading some of the responses here...It's like a raw nerve for some to point this out.

SPGS is a better school than G&L, deal with it. It may not be the best school for your DD individually , but it is the better school. Nothing anyone has posted makes me think this isn't true.

@newsibling123 To be clear I wasn't responding directly to your post. I was responding to the poster who claimed that Durham students were intellectually inferior to their Oxbridge counterparts. By and large, I don't think that's at all the case. Obviously there will be extraordinarily talented people at Oxbridge but the kind of people working hard to get a 2.1 generally in my experience are not a million miles away in terms of talent from the top half of people at Durham or any other good uni. They might be a bit more hard working and a bit more focused on their subject - but that slight edge doesn't always translate to greater success in the job market in my ( admittedly limited) experience.

Cambridge is nothing even close to chilled

I know two people who turned down law places at Oxford to do law at Nottingham and another northern uni. There are so many factors behind personal decision making

An academic hot house doesn’t tick the boxes for me. As the mum of a very talented dd who has significant struggles with mental health we are looking above all for a kind and calm School.

I think that some people apply to as many schools as possible to increase the chance of success, to ensure a broad selection to choose from. Or, they may think 'no harm in applying, the worst they can say is no', and then if they get an offer, they decide that somewhere else is a better fit.

Or, they learn something about the school after they've applied that changes their mind.

@newsibling123 Actually a Cambridge graduate (Nat Sci) with a PhD who went to a bog standard comprehensive. Have chosen a private education for my DC as I feel it’s right for them and we can afford it.

Unfortunately I feel your mindset is the same as a small minority of SW London parents who cannot see past the blinkered notion that only SPGS is the best and cannot possibly comprehend the many and numerous reasons previous posters have given as to why it is not.

Take a look at Brampton Manor Academy. 55 Oxbridge offers in 2019 and it’s FREE.

I think where you are going wrong with this post is the all things are equal. They very rarely are equal and finding a school or university is a bit like house buying - you have to have that certain feel you get when you walk in.

There is no best school really, just the best for your individual child and many people do recognise this. Quite why I am posting I have no idea as my youngest leaving school this year and I don’t live in London but find these sorts of threads strangely fascinating.

I think there are two things to be explored here. Firstly, it should be pretty obvious that a parent wanting an academic single sex day school for their daughter might apply for St P along with G&L, City, NLC, JAGS etc. Once they’ve done that, they begin the process of assessing the schools in more depth, as the schools assess their daughter. They’ll also see how their daughter reacts to the school.

As part of this process it’s easy to see endless points at which another school would be a better fit - particular subject teachers, teaching style, available subject combinations, cohort, ex-curricular stuff, atmosphere, whole-person building activities, sports, their daughter’s feelings, where her friends are going, where siblings are going, commute times etc etc

But secondly, it is a bit odd that you, as a presumably well-educated person in mid-life, need to ask this. Intellectually you must surely know education is a multilayered experience and thus it takes parents a while to choose, and that there are a multitude of factors within deciding on a school.. but emotionally this seems not to have landed with you.

This suggests to me that for you success maybe solely externally measured. Your thinking is very linear for someone of an age to understand that life isn’t simple. For your benefit and your children’s it may be worth you exploring what’s going on for you here.

Should have said I’m also an Oxbridge grad with dds in private school

I think it is interesting to just look at the facts rather than opinions and secondhand personal experiences. SPGS has an acceptance rate of +95% on the offers that it makes. By way of comparison, Harvard's is 85% and Stanford is 80%. So, the fact is that 5% or less of SPGS offers are actually turned down. I'm not saying that's good or bad, it's just fact of what happens each year.

I had an offer from Cambridge but chose to put Nottingham as my first choice. I only applied in the first place to please other people.

The open days (with overnight stays) we went to as I guess some sort of widening participation thing cemented the desire not to attend even if I was ambivalent before.