GCSE C grade students - unlikely to go on to A-Levels??

[Enb76]

Is this true? I have seen people say in some of the threads that if a student is around a C (a 4?) grade then they are unlikely to go on to A-Level. I may be a little out of the game but I thought C and above was A-Level and below a C was probably unlikely but didn't mean you were out of the game. I did my GCSEs in the early 1990's so I appreciate things have changed - including that grades are now numbered. My child is only currently choosing their GCSEs

Plenty of places will take grade 4 and above dor most subjects but the more academic institutions will only take 6 or above while the elite ones Will expect all 8/9s.

No where would recommend maths or physics to anyone with less than top GCSE grades the subjects.

My kids school wont take people on to A level without a 5 or a 6 (7 in maths for maths, physics or computer science; 8 in maths for further maths).

Dependant totally on the 6th form and the subject.

Ds1 applied to 3 x 6th forms for the same a level subjects. 2 x only needed 4s (including in a level subject gcse), the other needed 5s in maths and English and 6s at least in the a level subject gcse.

He went to the latter and did very well.

I'd be a) a bit unhappy at lack of aspiration for a 6th form that accepts 4s and b) what are their exam results like?

For maths, and biology in particular you really need 8s and 9s at gcse to cope with a level.

4 - low c
5 - high c

So a 4 is just a pass

Some sixth forms ask for 5 x grade 4s (from the higher paper if exists), most ask for higher. Even ones that want grade 4s will usually though ask for higher grades if doing maths or sciences - grade 4s in those subjects usually don't pass A levels in those subjects.

Students achieveing a grade 4 at GCSE are unlikely to do well at A level unless there were extenuating circumstances when sitting GCSEs.

At DD's school they asked that the students achieved at least a B in the subject they were taking at A level (DD sat her GCSEs in 2016 under the old grading system). A levels are a huge step up from GCSEs, so anyone achieveing 4s across the board are discouraged from taking A levels.

Although Ds and Es at A level are technically a pass very few higher education institutions would be interested in taking on students with such low grades.

You'd struggle to pass an a level if you only got a 4 at gcse

It's a huge step up academically

@RampantIvy

Students achieveing a grade 4 at GCSE are unlikely to do well at A level unless there were extenuating circumstances when sitting GCSEs.

At DD's school they asked that the students achieved at least a B in the subject they were taking at A level (DD sat her GCSEs in 2016 under the old grading system). A levels are a huge step up from GCSEs, so anyone achieveing 4s across the board are discouraged from taking A levels.

Although Ds and Es at A level are technically a pass very few higher education institutions would be interested in taking on students with such low grades.

Some old style polytechnic universities do...

But, again, if you just scraped a pass at a level you'd be unlikely to do well at undergraduate level...

Ds's school you have to have a 6 in any subject you want to do (7 for maths and further maths) for A level. Bog standard comp

You shouldn't be doing a level if a grade 4 was the best you could do (i.e., not you got a four because you suffered a bereavement in the run-up to exams , or similar).

You will find some schools that take students with low grades into a levels because they are undersubscribed and need bums on seats. However, a student who, on their best day, could only get a low pass at GCSE will be highly, highly unlikely to achieve more than a grade E at a level.

DDs college wanted 6s in Maths and English as a minimum with 4s in at least 3 other subjects. They also asked for a 6 in the Alevel subject ste was going to study (the other 2 Alevels she didn’t do at GCSE)

We ask for 5 grade 5s as a minimum for A levels, and then the subjects have their own requirements; Sciences, Psychology, Geography, Englishs and Maths ask for at least 6s, 7 for Further Maths.

For BTECs we ask for 4s in English, Maths and Sciences and 1 more subject as a minimum; Engineering needs a 5 in Maths. If you do not get this we enter you for a foundation year to resit English, Maths, Science and subjects like ICT that will also boost employability and prospects elsewhere.

The reality is that a student who can't comfortably get 4s will struggle at level 3, and if they can't get 5s and 6s A levels are likely to be out of their reach; the jump is just too much.

As others have said, our 6th form won't take less than a 5 and for sciences or specialist subjects like art, languages etc it needs to be a 6.

That said, the other local school takes 4s.

It may depend on the subject but a 4 is a low grade for A level.

My DCs school asks for 6s, may accept a 5 if there is good reason. Maths A level with a 6 will be a struggle. My subject is MFL and I would be wary of anyone with a lower grade than 7 tbf. A 6 at GCSE MFL indicates that verbs and vocab are not really secure and those are an essential start for A level.

It may be different fir modular subjects that don't specifically build on previous knowledge (history, eng lit maybe, new subjects like sociology) but even there it will be tough with 4/5 grades, unless of course there is some reason such as illness, and those grades don't represent the student's true ability.

I'm one of the people that you have probably read saying this, and I stand by it.
There are some graphs out there of likely a level grades based on GCSE grades and C grades are really not a good indicator that A levels will result in anything higher than Ds. Of course some people will outdo that, but the odds aren't good.
If you haven't mastered the skills / revision / work ethic to get more than a just--pass at GCSE, why would you expect to succeed at A level? (Extenuating circumstances excepting of course.)

There are some great BTECs out there that prepare students for work in more specific industries, and if you do well enough you can still go to uni based on them to progress in the same field.

In my DCs’ non-selective school you can get into sixth form with 4s, but most subjects specify a minimum of a 6 or 7 at GCSE to do the a-level.

I have before now had students get two A grades after coming to me with 4s. Not uncommon, at all for them to gain C grades and not uncommon for a 6 to become the same.

Maturity, undiagnosed learning needs and all sorts of other issues make such a difference. There are so many adults who have gone from poor literacy to degree or from failed GCSES to degree. It’s important to see the child not just the grade. I wouldn’t teach A-level at anywhere overly selective as you miss out on some of the really transformational outcomes. That said the whole maths / physics difference and need for flatting grades is very true.

I wouldn't go A level route if my child achieved 4s. In fact that's exactly my son and no point putting him through the stress of scraping by with D or lower at A level - i suppose there is the odd exception who suddenly blossomed at 16. For my son we explored what his interests were outside the classroom and his personality and it was pretty obvious the vocational route he should take. At a later date he could always do an access course if he decided to go for a degree or further education.
My daughter on the other hand did very well and moved to a more academic sixth form - requirements were minimum 7s or 8s for A level choices plus an exam as she was an external candidate. The reality is that most of her classmates got 8s and 9s in their subjects they went on to do at A level.
Both went to a non selective independent school which got good results considering the ease of entry, and even there it was a 7 to do an A level subject unless extenuating circumstances.

As far as I am aware, you can get 4s and 5s in some subjects to go on to A Levels but you need to get at least a 6 or 7 in the ones you want to continue at A Level.

I have before now had students get two A grades after coming to me with 4s. Not uncommon, at all for them to gain C grades and not uncommon for a 6 to become the same.

They would be the exception rather then the rule. The advantage of a student applying for 6th form at the same school they have been at since age 11 would mean that the teachers know them and would recognise their potential.

It would be a different kettle of fish if they were applying elsewhere and the college would just see a list of exam results without knowing why they underperformed.

This report makes interesting reading:
assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/183942/DFE-RR195.pdf
e.g. Spanish. Entering with a C at GCSE, less than 25% got above a D at A level.
Remember also that a levels are no longer modular and mainly don't have step offs at AS.

"Why" students have got a 4/5 is also important. If this was the result of concerted hard work across secondary school then it suggests the limit of potential.

If they'd coasted through secondary school, made minimal effort but were now showing a greater level of maturity that suggests they will approach 6th form study differently - that's a different question.

And of course many students have personal reasons why they underperform at GCSE.

All 4/5s are not created equally.

Many adults return to A Level or higher education study after doing abysmally in their GCSEs. Not getting a C at GCSE does not define your future.

To be fair @RedskyThisNight most people have said that there may be circumstances which would alter the case.

And FWIW I agree re a student being prepared to with hard making a difference. DS2 did no work and got 6 in Spanish, and if he had wanted to do A level (no way!) then his teacher would have needed to see evidence of commitment imo.

I also agree that GCSE grades don't define you, and I know lots of people who didn't do A levels post 16 and are now at uni.

To be fair tho, the op is talking about a student whose ability level is 4/5 at GCSE, so I think the responses are valid.

There may be some colleges that accept students with C Grade (4/5) GCSE's but with a few exceptions they are only likely to get Grades D/E at A level so if they just want to study the subjects for the love of them then that's OK but it won't lead to university entry,

Where as there are many of these students who take BTEC courses who then go on to achieve Distinctions and Merits opening up a wide range of university courses.

So really it's about what is best for the student and their liklihood of success.

I have a mixed view on this, DS 'wasnt allowed' to take maths a-level at his old school because of his GCSE grade but is now predicted a high B/low A. It was the teaching at the old school (and their assumptions about his ability) that prevented him from achieving. He needed some love bombing and confidence building - sorely lacking in some hot houses.

I suppose this is an example of the transformations that can occur alluded to above.