GCSE C grade students - unlikely to go on to A-Levels??

[Enb76]

Is this true? I have seen people say in some of the threads that if a student is around a C (a 4?) grade then they are unlikely to go on to A-Level. I may be a little out of the game but I thought C and above was A-Level and below a C was probably unlikely but didn't mean you were out of the game. I did my GCSEs in the early 1990's so I appreciate things have changed - including that grades are now numbered. My child is only currently choosing their GCSEs

@Enb76

Is this true? I have seen people say in some of the threads that if a student is around a C (a 4?) grade then they are unlikely to go on to A-Level. I may be a little out of the game but I thought C and above was A-Level and below a C was probably unlikely but didn't mean you were out of the game. I did my GCSEs in the early 1990's so I appreciate things have changed - including that grades are now numbered. My child is only currently choosing their GCSEs

Mine got all 3s and 4s. Went to sixth form amd redid maths and got a 4...going to uni

This is why it is so important to protect the Btecs that the government are hell bent on abolishing.

Ds got one Grade 8 in the subject he wants to study at university, 2 Grade 5's (maths and English), and 2 Grade 4's. The rest were 2's and 3's.

He is now at college doing a Btec in the subject he got an 8 in and is predicted DDD. He will be going to university next year (admittedly not RG but his offer so far is one of the more respected ex polys.)

Did he do A levels after re-sitting his maths or was he studying a different qualification to get to uni?

'4 - low c So a 4 is just a pass'

Ah, so it's not really a C as I was translating it. It's a bare minimum pass.

'This is why it is so important to protect the Btecs that the government are hell bent on abolishing.'

Well this seems mad. Surely we should widen the opportunities post GCSE if there are a significant number of children who do not have the right academic framework to sit A-Levels.

In the experience of posters here, do BTECs ect... hold the same, lesser or greater weight than A-levels in wanting to go into 3rd level education?

In my experience, students already on BTEC courses tend to choose very similar courses at university in which case their results are more than enough for the course they’re choosing if that makes sense. They would probably struggle with a very selective or academic course but those aren’t the courses they’re going for anyway. However they can still get on to the well-respected courses in their subjects, usually ones with a strong vocational or practical element, for which BTEC will prepare them well.

BTECs aren’t really a route into any course you want but they are a good stepping stone for students who might not otherwise be able to access higher education.

In the experience of posters here, do BTECs ect... hold the same, lesser or greater weight than A-levels in wanting to go into 3rd level education?

My son in his subject is not able to apply to Oxford, Cambridge, Manchester, Birmingham and Durham universities. That is all. For maths and science based subjects there are more universities where you can't apply with a Btec and of course it precludes anything medical.

In the experience of posters here, do BTECs ect... hold the same, lesser or greater weight than A-levels in wanting to go into 3rd level education?

A mate of Ds2's did something other than A levels and is now at Loughborough uni with him on a competitive course.

I think BTECs won't get you into Warwick to do Eng lit but that's fair enough tbh (if A level eng lit was too hard then the uni course will be) but they will get you to if that's what you want

Will get you to uni if that's what you want

@Comefromaway

In the experience of posters here, do BTECs ect... hold the same, lesser or greater weight than A-levels in wanting to go into 3rd level education?

My son in his subject is not able to apply to Oxford, Cambridge, Manchester, Birmingham and Durham universities. That is all. For maths and science based subjects there are more universities where you can't apply with a Btec and of course it precludes anything medical.

The DS of a really good friend of mine got into Durham on a BTEC, then went and got a First. I think a lot of people were surprised to hear this, but it definitely can be done.

It does vary slightly by subject. Durham would accept a Btec in my son's subject as long as it was accompanied by one A level in the subject being studied.

At my son's school, the vast majority of subjects require a pupil to have a minimum of a 6 at GCSE to get on the A level course and they need 5s for maths and english language regardless of the A levels being taken.
They might make an exception for a pupil they know if there were extenuating circumstances I suppose, but I know the admission criteria have been applied pretty ruthlessly in the past as the school is heavily oversubscribed - the majority of existing pupils and a lots from other schools in the area apply. I think the approach is a bit harsh to be honest. A friend of mine's DD who had been in the school since year 7 didn't get into 6th form last year because she failed maths, despite getting 7s in the arts subjects she wanted to do for A level. But I suppose if they publish criteria they have to stick to them or others who missed out would complain.
We had the 6th form info evening for current year 11s this week actually and most of the teachers did stress the big jump up from GCSE to A level and that pupils who don't get higher grades at GCSE would be likely to struggle. I've noticed they seem very keen to encourage pupils to take the A levels in which they are likely to get the highest grades, even if the mix of subjects doesn't seem entirely logical. It's very different to when I was at school myself when we were more or less forced to either do all sciences, or all arts. A friend of my elder DS recently did biology, chemistry and geography and is now at medical school - that would have been out of the question in my day.
I don't think the current system works terribly well here for pupils who are going to get mainly 4s and 5s. In our area, the local FE colleges have quite a good range of vocational courses for the less academic students and we have some excellent 6th forms that get very good A level results, but the kids with a raft of 4s and 5s kind of fall between the two. There's a few apprenticeships around, but not many, and a lot seem to end up going to the less good 6th forms and getting low A level grades, so not really that helpful to them. Given that it is now a requirement to stay in education or training til 18, I think there needs to be a wider variety of options. I did read that BTECs were possibly going to be phased out, which I think would be a big mistake so I hope it doesn't happen. I don't know much about the new T levels but they sound interesting.

I worry about T levels as they seem more restrictive in scope and more academic / exam focused.
There is a whole tranche of pupils who can do very well with practical based learning and continuous assessment but for whom exams just don't work. I worry they will end up with nothing.
Using Maths & English GCSE as an absolute gateway to level 3 qualifications is also a concern to me.

I think many students would be better served by the chance to achieve well on a BTEC than struggle with A levels. I get the impression there are still too many students going for A levels against their best interests because of snobbishness/ignorance about BTECs.

Realistically to do well at A level you need ability and graft. So 4s or 5s in themsleves don't give the full answer. If a kid slogs and gets 4s, he or she may struggle at A level and not get good grades. He or she may be more well suited to btecs etc., or a mixture.
Also some subjects in particular require higher grades. You couldn't do a level maths with a 4... Even a 5 would be a push.

4s are usually the basic requirement for progression to A level (higher for some subjects). However a lot of students with 4s/5s aren’t really cut out for A level

I got mostly grade C at GCSE then got three Bs at A-level, a first class honours degree and a master's with distinction. Not sure how helpful that is!

Dd's school required 6s in all subjects for A-level. 7s for maths.

I believe that the local college requires 5s for some subjects and 6s for others.

I would think anyone getting a 4 at GCSE would find A-level content to be extremely challenging.

@Moomin37

I got mostly grade C at GCSE then got three Bs at A-level, a first class honours degree and a master's with distinction. Not sure how helpful that is!

Assuming that your GCSE's, A levels and degree were more than 5 years ago then things have changed a lot. GCSE's were reformed in 2016/17 and A levels not long after.

My 2 oldest boys were in the same year at school doing their GCSEs. (Private school). One, unacademic but in the 1st rugby team only got 4s and 5s for his 9 GCSEs. He was allowed to stay for 6th form and do his A levels, based on his rugby playing and the fact he is a "thoroughly nice bloke" type thing.

The other, much cleverer but with ADHD and who the school has been as a complete PITA through years 7-11 got all 6-8 grades for his and was not allowed to stay on for 6th form.

That was a fun few months in our house.... 😫

Anyway, A level son did absolutely fine in his 2 A'levels and additional BTEC and is now at Bristol UWE. He didn't get As but he did enough for Uni and is very happy.

ADHD son did a BTEC Level 3 Extended at the local college and was actually much happier with the independence of it all there, not having to play rugby, go to chapel every thursday, assemblies, being told off for minor uniform and behaviour transgressions etc. Hes now at Nottingham Trent Uni.

TeenPlusCat - using GCSE Eng and Maths as an absolute gatekeeper to Level 3 is dreadful. It’s also a gatekeeper to many level 2 college courses so you see able students who end up doing multiple level 1 courses rather than moving through the levels that will give them jobs.

When the B Techs are gutted and the T levels more widely taken choice has narrowed again for our more vulnerable learners who have always been more heavily represented on B Tech courses.

@Quantity5

TeenPlusCat - using GCSE Eng and Maths as an absolute gatekeeper to Level 3 is dreadful. It’s also a gatekeeper to many level 2 college courses so you see able students who end up doing multiple level 1 courses rather than moving through the levels that will give them jobs.

When the B Techs are gutted and the T levels more widely taken choice has narrowed again for our more vulnerable learners who have always been more heavily represented on B Tech courses.

I agree. The reduction in BTECs at schools is also a concern. DD was doing Food tech GCSE before the pandemic - there was a lot of theory. She would have been better off doing a BTEC or 3. (As it was it all fell to pieces, but that's another story).

I can see the rationale in not having 200 different BTECs in Engineering (I have been doing some light reading) commonslibrary.parliament.uk/level-3-qualifications-reform-whats-happening-to-btecs/

And while I can see that there are objections they seem to be centred on not losing public money rather than the fact that the current system is already fit for purpose.

I do not know enough about it though to make a reasonable argument for or against.

I would hope that students who are not 'academic' have an equal opportunity to get education that is suited to their needs, taught at demonstrably high standards, that can be used as an entry either to HE or to the jobs/professions that they aspire to. If BTECs do that then there is no need to reform them, if they do not do that then it is never a bad idea to see if things can be made better. I don't know either way and my reading has been brief.

So frustrating. Hope your daughter is enjoying whatever she is doing now.

I think our whole education system devalues non academic skills. Funnily enough DH and I were talking about this only the other day. He was bemoaning the quality of graduates applying for roles in his department (he's an engineer) and saying that years ago they would have been looking for people with HNDs for these jobs. But now everyone has a degree and it is hard to find people with the required practical skills but who still have enough theoretical knowledge. Same with polys and FE colleges being rebranded as Universities really - was there really a problem with having different types of educational establishments to suit different types of people?
There seems to be a drive to push everyone into the same box, and the "education or training til 18" policy seems to have been brought in without anywhere near enough thought to what 16-18 year olds need, or where they are going to get this education. Well, that's how it looks where I live anyway, I appreciate it may be different elsewhere.
A levels and degrees are not for everyone, and people who can't or don't want to go down that path need to be better valued and supported.

Quantity yes thanks. She's doing a L1 animal care course and continuing her recovery.

That’s good TeenPlusCat:)