D of E - how relevant to university applications?

[TwoLeftElbows]

Posting on this board because it's an educational question for secondary age.

Question in the title really - how important or otherwise is D of E for university applications these days? DD is at a very middle class, high achieving comp and quite a few of her friends are doing bronze D of E, mostly "for their uni applications". One even told her it's essential. DD is very academic, articulate and passionate about her subjects and I thought universities are less interested in extra-curricular box ticking these days, but is there still value in D of E? I think she will cover all the elements in her existing activities really, apart from planning the walk, so I'm not sure she would gain loads in personal development from it.

She does do a voluntary activity and a club so she has some stuff to talk about, but not masses compared with friends who do sports, music exams etc. I am not sure what to advise her.

@Tibtom

For those who say it is all down to grades, how does this work on a course like medicine where most candidates are top grades? How do you distinguish?

My ds is doing DoE which I am glad about as it gets him out of his room. I think getting out of his room and trying new things will be important when he gets to uni and applies for jobs. If you don't need DoE to incentivise them to do this then it may not be usefull.

For medicine they have to either take the UCAT and/or BMAT tests too. Thus it comes down to the grades and rakings in these as well as A level grades which as you say may not differentiate between candidates whereas UCAT and BMAT certainly does.

DofE and extra curriculars are really not necessary these days for anything other than US university applications.

Most personal statements should be written so as to demonstrate their interest in the degree subject they want to study whether that is discussing their views on books they have read, documentaries they have, lectures they have attended (not a list either - their view on what they read, saw etc and how it engaged them to explore the area further).

There should be literally 20% at the end stating volunraty work, hobbies, Dof E etc (where it shows transferable skills relevant to the course) and indeed if there is more to write on the subject matter this is the area to be trimmed.

Oxbridge admissions talk say they don't care about any of this at all - just subject and many more of the competitive unis are the same (which is the complete opposite as someone wrongly suggested above!)

@Utility

Not sure if it's worth my posting again, but when interviewing for one of the courses mentioned above (for which top grades are required) my colleagues and I look favourably on success at DofE.

Only to highlight the inherent unfairness of your view....

Maybe re-read your institutions APP...?

DofE and extra curriculars are really not necessary these days for anything other than US university applications

And ensuring the roundedness and good MH of the students. Unis might not give a shit but extra curriculars gave my dcs lots of pleasure and in one case helped them to choose their career.

I would have thought that completing extra curricular activités that require using initiative and effort to complete rather than signing up at school for d of e, will be more impressive.

@SprayedWithDettol

I would have thought that completing extra curricular activités that require using initiative and effort to complete rather than signing up at school for d of e, will be more impressive.

D of E does require initiative?

Mine didn't do it but I don't understand the dismissal of it on Mumsnet. Its a perfectly valid and fun thing to do. The volunteering can be really enriching to some students. Fair enough unis don't care but their focus is very narrow - do extra currucs for your own enrichment rather than uni applications

@SprayedWithDettol

I would have thought that completing extra curricular activités that require using initiative and effort to complete rather than signing up at school for d of e, will be more impressive.

DoE should require this. Is the problem that teenagers are too supported in doing it? My son used his initiative to fibd voluntary work and identify a new sport to learn that was outside his comfort zone.

It is a perfectly valid thing to do, you're right. But OP was specifically asking about its relevance to university applications, I think that's why people have answered in the way that they have.

The majority of universities are really not terribly interested in a student's extracurricular.

The majority of universities are really not terribly interested in a student's extracurricular

Yes they have a very narrow focus, students should do them anyway for their own enrichment. Don't be totally dictated to by the universities. It would be good if they DID pay attention to extracurricular tbh, might encourage students to do some - not necessarily expensive stuff either, but football, volunteering, working, art etc

@Utility

Not sure if it's worth my posting again, but when interviewing for one of the courses mentioned above (for which top grades are required) my colleagues and I look favourably on success at DofE.

I did note this first time round, thanks @Utility. Do you look favourably on Bronze or just the higher levels? Can I ask how you make sure you are not discriminating against applicants from lower socioeconomic backgrounds?

You can't ensure you aren't discriminating. Our local state is a contextual offer school and they do D of E
Unless you know the students personal socio economic group how would you be able not to discriminate?

My dd completed D of E to gold level.
I think just the different criteria for Dof E naturally ensure that teens are taking part in at least 3 extra curricular activities.

A very bright girl in dd's year was so focused on her studies that she did nothing else. She did not get offered any places for her chosen degree.
Whether or not this was relevant I'm not sure.

"We consider each application holistically. Whilst academic achievement is important, it is not the only factor that we consider when assessing applications and applicants who have achieved, or are predicted to achieve, close to our typical offer, but who have not met it exactly, will be welcome to apply if they have a strong application in other key elements, for example can demonstrate merit and potential through their personal statement or their reference"

This is from Durham.

But the same holds true of grades. Perhaps even more so. Post-coding schools or pupils ignores pockets of, or individuals, suffering severe deprivation. This can be especially the case in rural areas.

Disadvantages can be covered in personal statements.

Giving advantage because someone has done 6 weeks at a top law firm in London (because Uncle Steve is a director there) over and above someone who had to spend the summer helping care for disabled siblings, wouldn't be right.

DofE should be for personal enjoyment/growth, not to get brownie points on a uni application.

Giving advantage because someone has done 6 weeks at a top law firm in London (because Uncle Steve is a director there) over and above someone who had to spend the summer helping care for disabled siblings, wouldn't be right
Morally maybe not but still quite impressive. Either unis are interested in relevant extra curriculars or they aren't. And that would be relevant if you were applying for a law degree.

Though helping to care for a disabled sibling 'counts' for DoE.

The difficulty is at what point does it become reasonable to reject someone who hasn't achieved due to life chances/failures by schools? Or where does it becone unreasonable to ignore achievements that have only been possible because of wealth but are achievements nonetheless (eg international sporting achievements)?

DS played rugby for his school and also played the flute.
His personal statement read 'I'm the only flautist in the first XV.'
He got into Durham, his first choice.

@SiobhanSharpe

DS played rugby for his school and also played the flute. His personal statement read 'I'm the only flautist in the first XV.' He got into Durham, his first choice.

Regarding personal statements, my Ds has been told that his should show what he has achieved, particularly with regards to super curriculum related to his chosen subject.

He has to include one paragraph regarding extra curriculum, otherwise he looks too narrow.

School have then told him that their statement will show the challenges he faced.

So, in his case, school will say that his transition to year 7 showed him to be practically selective mute.

After a lot of fight and determination from him, he has just received a distinction in grade 6 lamda and is waiting on the results of his public speaking grade 7. School will emphasis how bad he was to start with.

That's what he's been told, anyway (by his fairly average results wise state school).

who have achieved, or are predicted to achieve, close to our typical offer, but who have not met it exactly, will be welcome to apply if they have a strong application in other key elements, for example can demonstrate merit and potential through their personal statement or their reference

I'd bet that the "merit and potential" is in the discipline, not doing the Ten Tors or whatever.

His personal statement read 'I'm the only flautist in the first XV.'

I imagine it was the amusing but succinct way he phrased that rather than the achievements themselves which impressed.

D1 did DoE at school and generally enjoyed it, good experience for her to do volunteering, set herself goals etc, but not relevant at all to university application. School told them they could just mention extra curricular interests in the PS, but concentrate on subjects and supra curricular stuff. At interview it was all academic stuff.

I used to be an admissions tutor for a high competition degree programme in an RG university. Have family and friends who've done the same job elsewhere, in universities at the top and the bottom of the league table. Have never met one who cared even slightly about DoE. The most competitive programmes in the top universities care about grades and (ideally) an interest in the subject; the ones at the bottom that are hanging on by their fingertips will take anyone with a pulse.

Schools are very keen to tell students that extra-curricular stuff matters for applications, but unless it's directly relevant to the degree programme, it just doesn't, in my experience.