Affordable education near North London

[hibbledibble]

In case grammar options don't work out, I'm keen to do anything possible to avoid the local (dire) state secondaries. Any suggestions for decent schools where admission is not by distance, or private schools that are not the most expensive? I would likely not receive any bursary at all based on the online information, but due to the cost of London living, multiple children with high childcare bills and others expenses, could certainly not afford the 'premium' private schools eg Channing, Highgate, South Hampstead

I'm prepared for her to travel a considerable distance, and can pay for travel. I would rather she travelled to a good school then went to a bad one at the doorstep.

My comment about home time wasn't snobbery at loud teenagers. It's a safety issue with daily fighting, and weapons being drawn not infrequently. I have seen this myself sadly. All reported to the school and police.

I have witnessed home time at schools in other areas and it's nothing like this.

Do you live N, S, E or W of N15? It may help us help you.

Do you need to stay in the area? For work? Could you move further out towards Redbridge or Havering? Could you afford bits of N22 to get into Heartlands?

[quote meadowbreeze]@sammyvine do you understand how schools progress gets measured? How prior attainment and progress 8 works? How EHCPs effect the school?[/quote]
No i don't actually. I need to research this. I always look at the GCSE pass rates but youre right...progress is most important.

How does progress 8 work?

Latymer and HBS which I m sure you know already. N15 is not in DAO catchment. Mill Hill County has non-catchment dance, technology and music places. As mentioned, Camden Girls has music places.

Greycoat Hospital in Westminster has bandiing test and language places, Twyford in Ealing has music places, St Marylebone's has performance places, all CofE,

St Michael's in Finchley is a Catholic girls grammar with no catchment.

I m not in N London, and my local schools are largely not very scary, although I really can't/don't want to imagine my DC in a couple of the schools. It is not snobbishness, I just want a 'normal' school , don't need stellar results or acres of land, just with a decent range of students. As it is, this yr we are just about ok to get into 2 good ones, but only 0.1 and 0.03 mile from cutoff, otherwise it is the 30% pass rate school. My DC mange to get a music place at a partially selective school, but yes it was more than slightly stressful.

@sammyvine it's far from perfect but it does give a better idea of progress than purely results as it takes into account the starting point of the child. Progress 8 above 0 is good.
I'm not saying Heartlands is perfect, it's no Dame Alice Owens but it is the one OP is most likely to get from waiting list.
However, I don't know how old OPs child is and I suspect it'll get much more popular in the next couple of years as the reputation is increasing through word of mouth.
Heartlands is very very similar to APS in ethos, teaching and SEN provision. Their intake is more 'rough' but they do really well with the kids they have.
I wouldn't go crazy with travel OP. If you can get yourself on the waiting lists you should be ok.
I would also try and get into St Mary Magdalene primary school. See if they have in year spaces as their own primary kids are above distance in secondary admissions policy.

@hibbledibble if you live in N15, it's highly likely you could rent / buy for less in Waltham Forest which has lots of good state schools. Is that an option?

@sammyvine progress 8 measures the progress of pupils over 8 subjects - it looks at where they have come from and where they should be going.

So, for example. Imagine a pupil comes in with certain sats scores and that is determined (by a central formula, not by school) that they should get a grade 3 in their GCSE’s. If they do, they score 0 on progress 8. They’ve made the expected progress. If they get a grade 4, they’ve made more progress than expected and that’s worth 1. If it’s a grade 2, they’ve made less progress than expected and that’s a -1.

So, the GCSE pass rate is a bit of a blunt instrument because very good schools could have 100% pass rate at GCSE but rubbish progress because all their kids should be getting grade 7’s but the school is only getting them 6’s. It registers as a pass, but not good enough.
Conversely, other schools could have a low GCSE pass rate but awesome progress, so you know the teaching there is good and working well.

Does that make sense? Look for progress rather than headline 4+ or 5+ rates.

So basically, any school with a positive progress 8 score is doing better than expected!

[quote PotteringAlong]@sammyvine progress 8 measures the progress of pupils over 8 subjects - it looks at where they have come from and where they should be going.

So, for example. Imagine a pupil comes in with certain sats scores and that is determined (by a central formula, not by school) that they should get a grade 3 in their GCSE’s. If they do, they score 0 on progress 8. They’ve made the expected progress. If they get a grade 4, they’ve made more progress than expected and that’s worth 1. If it’s a grade 2, they’ve made less progress than expected and that’s a -1.

So, the GCSE pass rate is a bit of a blunt instrument because very good schools could have 100% pass rate at GCSE but rubbish progress because all their kids should be getting grade 7’s but the school is only getting them 6’s. It registers as a pass, but not good enough.
Conversely, other schools could have a low GCSE pass rate but awesome progress, so you know the teaching there is good and working well.

Does that make sense? Look for progress rather than headline 4+ or 5+ rates.[/quote]
Thanks for this! You learn everyday lol
This makes a lot of sense.

A secondary school like Fortismere/Archer Academy in East Finchley for example is very middle class so i can imagine a lot of their kids come with good sats results and from good primary schools therefore it's likely that their GCSE pass rates will be very good considering their intake. However a school with a lot of disadvantaged kids don't have that luxury.

What is a good progress 8 score? 0.6?

@sammyvine yes, 0.6 would be good - it means that, on average, every pupil gets over half a grade better at GCSE than you would expect them to based on how well they’ve done at primary school.

[quote PotteringAlong]@sammyvine yes, 0.6 would be good - it means that, on average, every pupil gets over half a grade better at GCSE than you would expect them to based on how well they’ve done at primary school.[/quote]
If youre looking at Barnet non selective schools the best schools are Wren Academy and Archer Academy (both in Finchley) right?

@sammyvine just to add to that confusion, if a school has a high percentage of SEN pupils (eg Heartlands) they will most likely not be entered for the subjects that count towards progress 8. This can warp schools progress 8 figures as do lots of other things but that one example that's very relevant to Heartlands as they have an amazing SEN team that attracts a lot of SEN kids from across the borough. APS has the same but APS has the middle class kids to offset that dip.
Also, if a school has a high % of FSM but are still getting great progress than that's another great sign as it's very unlikely those kids are swamped with private tutors unlike their more middle class neighbours.
Heartlands is by no means a top state school, but I would take it any day over Skinner's and park view.

To be fair, 100 at SATS does not translate to slowly grade 3 at GCSE. It’s should be at least grade 5. Children at 110 plus should be looking at grades 7-9.

A minus progress 8 does not mean the child has not made progress: it means they have not made as much progress as DC at other schools based on their starting point.

The government gives detailed progress figures for low, middle and high attainers on their web site. You can search for details of each school. Also FSM data, SEN data etc. You should look at where your child might be regarding prior attainment and look at the percentage of DC in each group. You can then decide if the school is likely to do well by your child.

Often there are excellent primary schools in London who get very good sats results. The important thing is that the secondary schools improve on this, or at least lose no ground.

Universities do give credit to DC if they attend certain lower performing schools or live in a deprived area by offering lower grades to access courses. If you can achieve well at a lower performing school, it can pay off well later on.

[quote meadowbreeze]@sammyvine just to add to that confusion, if a school has a high percentage of SEN pupils (eg Heartlands) they will most likely not be entered for the subjects that count towards progress 8. This can warp schools progress 8 figures as do lots of other things but that one example that's very relevant to Heartlands as they have an amazing SEN team that attracts a lot of SEN kids from across the borough. APS has the same but APS has the middle class kids to offset that dip.
Also, if a school has a high % of FSM but are still getting great progress than that's another great sign as it's very unlikely those kids are swamped with private tutors unlike their more middle class neighbours.
Heartlands is by no means a top state school, but I would take it any day over Skinner's and park view.[/quote]
I see

I said in another thread but it seems APS has changed. I know its in Muswell which is an 'wealthy' area, but I remember when many years ago it was know for being quiet balanced, in that it had a middle class intake as well as kids who lived in Wood Green and Bounds Green which are obviously considered to be 'disadvantaged'. I think their last Ofsted report which was in 2011 (yes a long time ago) said that a lot of students were on free school meals. I guess the school being very good means that their catchment has shrunk so these days their intake is from the richer parts of Muswell Hill and kids living in Bounds Green/Wood Green can't get a place?

State boarding?

The school local to me is a boarding school, and I know they take several children from London. Most board on a weekly basis.

The education is free, you just pay for the boarding. Max 9k a year.

sarahfc which school is this? I'm willing to consider different options, but the state boarding options I have looked at are very expensive.

For various reasons I don't feel like moving is an option right now, not least the cost of moving, plus siblings being settled at primary school.

Meadow breeze why the low opinion regarding park view and Skinner's , out of interest?

I'm in the west end of N15, in case it matters

@hibbledibble nothing personal. I would just try all other options first. There are a lot worse options out there so it's not like they're going to sink high. You are unfortunately in a borough full off really good schools, just not at the right end of it so it makes those two look worse than they are.
For that reason purely I would try my best to get into the better ones through waiting lists or the primary admissions route I mentioned above.

@hibbledibble what schools are you trying to avoid? And what are your catchment schools now? I have a friend with a child at Skinners and they are happy there but it would be way too strict for my liking.

I'm trying to avoid Park View and Gladesmore. I know little about Skinner's, and unsure if I would even be in catchment. I'm looking for a school where a very clever, but quirky, anxious and easily distracted, child would be ok. Local primary is already becoming problematic, due to her becoming very bored.

Hm in that case your description of after school problems looks a bit different now. I thought you were maybe talking about Northumberland Park (Dukes) or Harris. I don't blame you for wanting to avoid PV but not so much Gladesmore. I went to one of the very sought after schools mentioned here and my much much younger sibling is currently there and there is just as much of this as in N15/N17 schools. There is a huge problem with drugs around APS and Fortismere, county lines and gang recruitment is everywhere. It's really not always better on the other side.
Realistically you're not going to get into a school better than Gladesmore unless you move, go on waiting lists or get into grammar.
If primary is a problem than move them to a better all through school where you're likely to get in through in year admissions. That will solve both your problems.

@hibbledibble if you're west n15 I'm assuming you'd be closer to Skinners than Gladesmore?

I still stick by looking at Hornsey School for Girls as somewhere you'd be pretty much guaranteed a place even if it's your 6th choice.
I know someone whose DD is going to City of London School for Girls on a full bursary. I didn't realise they would qualify. They have a higher percentage of bursary students than other private schools so it could be worth looking into there.

Yes, I don't think Hornsey has a catchment at all. I probably am closer to Skinner's, but it's not a school that local friends go to, so I know nothing about it.

While I am sure there are issues with schools in the more wealthy parts of the borough, they aren't as acute as those locally. I have heard blood chilling first hand accounts regarding the local schools.

@hibbledibble

I'm trying to avoid Park View and Gladesmore. I know little about Skinner's, and unsure if I would even be in catchment. I'm looking for a school where a very clever, but quirky, anxious and easily distracted, child would be ok. Local primary is already becoming problematic, due to her becoming very bored.

Gladesmore is a decent school

Sammy What are you basing that on? I know it's Ofsted 'outstanding' but that doesn't mean a lot in reality.

The behaviour both in and out of the school is appalling, and there are a lot of gang issues. The pupils are also not infrequently murdered, soon after finishing school. Seeing pupils pull knives out on each other after school, it's something I want for my child.