ISEB exam results - bad day or system botch up ?

[ElonanotAlone]

Do you think the ISEB results truely reflect your DC's actual ability? Just that really.

We have been fortunate to receive exam feedback from a couple of Schools with quartile cohort results and eventually our actual scores from a sympatheic and understanding school. As a consequence we have been shocked by the inconsistency of ISEB results versus our DC's known competency on a particular subject, notably English and Maths.

Our view is based on known performance on a number of verifiable asessments - a non ISEB exam eg Grammar, mocks, school exams, CAT4 outcomes, etc or teacher expectations of performance.

We have tried endlessly to rationalise the outcomes, perhaps DC had a bad day, greater competition, however, in discussion with a few at school others facing similar outcomes, we have come to ponder, was there a glitch or ISEB malfunction with the exam format questions/answers or set up issues within the inviligation centres?

Hence, curious to see if thus is an isolated school issue or one felt amongst other parents feeling disillusioned with 11+ choices we are forced to accept..

We applied to three school using ISEB. Results were as follows:

KCS (super selective): no interview;
Hampton (slightly less, but still super selective): interview (went badly) -> wait list;
Trinity (slightly less, but still very selective): interview (went well) -> no offer.

DS also sat KGS (offer) and several grammar tests: Kent Test (passed in 380s), Sutton (passed SGS and WCGS) and St. Olave's (missed cutt-off by one point).

Based on one of the school's feedback, his ISEB results were as follows:

English: 2nd quartile (i.e. 50th percintile)
Maths: 2nd quartile
Verbal Reasoning: 3rd quartile (i.e. 75th percentile)
Non-verbal reasoning: 2nd quartile

Based on his performance elsewhere and Atom SAS we observed, I'd argue he significantly underperformed on the day. I would have expected:

English: 3rd
Maths: 4th
Verbal Reasoning: 3rd
Non-verbal reasoning: 2nd (he has specific difficulties with certain spatial logic due to SEN).

Sorry, I forgot to add he flunked Tiffin Stage 1, as it was his first test and the nerves got the better of him.

Interesting responses so my DC was not the only crazy kid sitting multiple tests.

Thanks for an interesting thread and would love to hear back from spring67 about whether independents did contact state schools re pupils too.

@tryalittle just to add a different viewpoint: we only applied for two indies (both ISEB), did not apply for grammars, would have done local secondary had no offers been forthcoming from the indies. Applied for Hampton / RGS so both fairly selective.

So DS only sat the ISEB and we are state primary so no CATS or formal prep school tests etc. He did do one pre 11+ assessment with a tutor to see if the schools we were aiming for were realistic (which gave us scores similar to CATS but don’t think they’re exactly the same) but that was well over a year before he sat the ISEB.

We didn’t do any ATOM, just a few Planet BOFA practices to familiarise him with the online format. But those were all down at home so don’t really count as formal exam practice either...

I don’t know DS’s ISEB quartiles but he got offers from both schools so clearly all went ok for him despite no real previous exam or interview experience.

Obviously it’s clear from this thread that not everyone had a fair ISEB experience and I really feel for those concerned. It does sound as if some schools messed up the admin / setting of exam conditions too. We were lucky in that DS sat the ISEB at Hampton who had everything set up very professionally but in a child focused, welcoming way, with plenty of snacks and breaks etc, which must have made a difference to the DC.

Super interesting FlyingPandas good to hear that a low key approach can still work too.

Yes it is clear that not everyone had a standard experience with ISEB, not even sure if it really tests much, and the way some do it all at once and others can do it across a number of days is very unusual.

Also as I understand it the questions are age standardised and so not every gets the same questions, unlike say state grammar tests where the applicants all sit the same test content and then the age standardisation is applied.

I still am inclined to think our DC did well because of the exam practice and the bit of work we did to help prepare.

I also agree with ISEB being used so much and because you can only take it once, then I think people may well have applied for more schools than usual in the private sector, so I wonder if waiting lists movement will be more than usual this year.

@spring67

thank you very much for confirming what we always felt had happened, i.e. ISEB is not reflecting the real ability of a child (maybe due to some unexplained glitch in the algorithm).

your post carries a lot of weight as you are on the other side !

Our head has been in touch with the ISEB schools we applied to which helped massively in getting to the next stage and giving a more complete picture of DC.
However, we still have only had WL from the most selective schools. At the end of the day, in a competitive world with lots of strong applicants, the 4 "magic" ISEB scores will always be there in full sight and stick out badly.
I just hope that schools will not be assessing applicants solely with that systems going forward, as even if the glitch in the system was fixed, it remains that the level playing field is not fair, nor is the lack of transparency and visibility over the process.

This is an interesting thread. We applied to 2 private schools for DD (as a back up from my point of view, as I prefer to stick within the state system, rest of my family don't necessarily have the same view hence we applied for both). We have accepted state offer and declined our private offer. Of the 2 private schools we applied to, one was non ISEB and we received an offer and one was ISEB and we were waitlisted. No idea whether the ISEB was an accurate or fair test. I would have expected to receive a straight offer from that ISEB school and was surprised not to. However, feedback from the ISEB school is that she performed best in the ISEB in the subject she is best at, so to that extent at least the ISEB result is correct. However, to be honest, what surprised me more than anything else about the private system process was the lack of transparency generally. After being waitlisted, told top third, we received about 4 emails asking us to let the school know if we were still interested in a place. Essentially it seems we were supposed to contact the school saying how interested we were, please offer to us next on the waiting list etc. I have also seen this advice on numerous Mumsnet threads. We did not do so. I found this odd, coming from a state school background, as in the state system it is a meritocracy and they would simply go down their waiting list in exact order by whatever criteria they apply (e.g. performance in test, distance from the school or whatever the criteria for that school is) and there would be no point in contacting them saying how keen you are etc. Whatever one might think of any tests set in the state system, at least the allocation of places is entirely transparent.

We don’t know ours but I think given the school that accepted it sounds right knowing the Atom scores (140+)

I don’t actually know the CAT only general school reports - last all exceeding for each subject

We did low key approach too

Just past papers (had about five marked as no answer sheets) and Atom to familiarise for one month

gsha In the end we went with state options.

I found it a bit disconcerting. DC sat a test and had interview with the private schools.

I felt like I was massively sold to and I get that they are private businesses but when they start saying your child is brilliant and will really fit in I just thought you have only interview DC and DC has sat a test or two.

I fully imagine if you are on the wait list and say I am ready to pay the deposit as soon as I get a place then that does probably make a difference.

I also wonder if independent schools are not able to let people know much about the waiting list because they probably over offer and they want to present the school are over subscribed.

I guess that is why I am interested in whether the senior schools contact prep schools and state schools to go through results. I know our state school would not have time to do anything other than a reference.

I have read all the comments and the only conclusion one can make is that for some children the ISEB results are not correct or reflective of their ability.

Reminds me of the GCSE/A level fiasco of last year

A few top schools we applied to stated : "We are very aware that the lockdown will have affected different children in different ways. We will be asking a candidate’s current school to comment on the effects of lockdown on a candidate and to outline what educational provision they were able to make during the period of school closures."
Is the "amount of educational provision" taken into consideration in the weighing and averaging of the SAS results? If yes, that might explain the discrepancies in the result and state vs private schools entry.

@Drminime no, the amount of educational provision is not part of the scoring for the SAS as it is calculated by an algorithm. the ISEB has not got that information, it is just available the admission team that has requested it.
IT's difficult for many schools to answer those questions as many have not had meaningful contacts with their pupils during the lockdowns. In addition, not all schools will be giving the details of how much or how little they provided during lockdown, let alone how it is performed at home.

@Teacakes100 both fiascos had an algorithm at some point !

Thanks@lamsodone. I wish all the success to your DC. Hope he/she doesn't get discouraged by the ISEB performance, which is obviously not reflective of ability. And most importantly, not to lose confidence. Hang on in there.

BTW, we used Atom for ISEB prep and found that their student scores (the dials) based on their algorithm were not reflective of the actual mock test results and didn't change often. After many feedback to their team, we found that the scores were manually balanced and updated by a team in Vietnam...here we go for the algorithm...

they told me the numbers on the gage/dials would increase with the course progress so by how much how the course was covered by the child in % (as in new content in learning), and they were not really influenced by the practice of mocks etc

it was the big argument to continue the subscription after 11+ to get ready for year 7 by increasing the gage numbers to whaterver the target was for your next school.

Another thing is there question bank seems way larger than the ISEB. again without official past paper on the ISEB, who knows ?

For what it’s worth we found ATOM lulled us into a false sense of security. After a few weeks DD was getting top scores because the same questions kept coming up. We switched back to paper based tests and it was a lot better as we were able to mix it up a bit in terms of question style etc. Also, once we knew that there was going to be a switch to ISEB we really focused on accuracy. DD is very intelligent but prone to silly mistakes if she thinks something is easy...getting a few questions wrong at the start of ISEB can throw the whole score whereas with a paper based test or something that’s not adaptive you can redeem yourself later or get partial credit for silly mistakes. She was lucky enough to get offers from all her schools but I did feel that her exam technique was the “star” of the day as opposed to her true academic ability (which I think is better showcased in a paper based exam).... I think ISEB is fine as a screening tool but I don’t think it gives the whole picture.

Fascinating- we never found the dials changed on Atom and yes to the same questions coming up over and over.

@Drminime as @11plusNewbie correctly points out the Atom Overall Progress Dials (current overview) only calculates on the coursework and across all the different questions your child does across all the components (E/M/VR/NVR). The scoring for the mocks is entirely different and calculated and scored separately and just on the specific mock test when completed, it has NO effect on the overall progress.

If you look at your child's account, under the coursework and subjects you will be able to see how many gold stars and different topics have been answered or attempted and the more they do across each of the topics means the % will calculate higher or lower more frequently. If they were only answering some sections within each subtopic and not all and not receiving the gold stars upon completion of each, then it wouldn't change much as little to calibrate on. We checked with Atom on this previously.

Re: The ISEB scoring, as this was all computer-based with such a phenomenally large number of applicants from all the schools subscribing and facilitating at the last moment, it really was a guinea pig situation. Undoubtedly a first for ISEB being catered on such a scale. I, therefore have absolutely no doubt that there would have been technical glitches and many children affected by algorithms gone awry etc. and thus losing out with poor or unsubstantiated quartile results.

Didn't bother with the coursework as only joined Atom in October not long before the exam, thus our student score didn't have any course work component but purely based on the mock tests. I also checked with Atom a few times and they told me they noticed the glitch but were waiting for the team in Vietnam to adjust it.

Whichever algorithm is used, nothing can reflect ability and capability that accurately. Atom did help us to get familiar with the style of the ISEB exam and is a good tool. I wouldn't read too much into the meaning of the scores as we know a lot of very capable and intelligent children who perform well at school but did not make it through the first round. Most importantly is not to be discouraged by the results and carry on learning confidently.

For us Atom was useful for a short period, ie one month. We only did the mock exams on there.

We had been doing past paper exams in the summer but I was very glad to get the heads up for online practise for this year anyway.

My DS had to go into central London to sit the ISEB in one sitting (there were hardly anyone else there as most other kids, prep and state, allowed their students to sit at their own schools).

DS' scores secured him WUS, plus other highly selective indies (including some scholarships).

We have not received detailed results on the ISEB but, from what one of the HM of one schools disclosed, the scores tallied very closely with his standardised scores on the CEM and Progress in English/Maths taken at school - usually 138-141+ for Maths/Developed ability and 130 for English (average across all: 138).

DS passed the 11+ grammar tests (incl top 180 in one) and St Olave's. A few of his friends who are strong at Maths didn't get offered WUS but got into a couple of the most highly sought after and selective state schools - I think their English let them down. My DS is generally strong on comprehension and vocab - certainly more so than his other siblings at the same age - but makes mistakes when it comes to proof reading etc. He may not be the fastest or accurate on easier maths questions but loves problem-solving Maths questions and puzzles. His VR and NVR are generally strong - 135-142 on Atom near the ISEB exam.

My DS had been using Atom for quite some time before and, as others have said, having sat the 11+ grammar tests onsite before in October/November - including a couple of mock exams before that - would definitely have helped calm the nerves on the day.

I do hope that you all get the schools you wish for; there is often an enormous amount of movement over the coming weeks. :)

@lightattheendofthetunnel2021 really impressive - well done your DS! Would you say then that Westminster was particularly focussed on English or that they were simply just looking for a strength in English as pronounced as in maths?

@lightattheendofthetunnel2021

well done to your DS

If you don’t mind me saying.....but this is the type of contribution one would expect from either Atom or ISEB....