ISEB exam results - bad day or system botch up ?

[ElonanotAlone]

Do you think the ISEB results truely reflect your DC's actual ability? Just that really.

We have been fortunate to receive exam feedback from a couple of Schools with quartile cohort results and eventually our actual scores from a sympatheic and understanding school. As a consequence we have been shocked by the inconsistency of ISEB results versus our DC's known competency on a particular subject, notably English and Maths.

Our view is based on known performance on a number of verifiable asessments - a non ISEB exam eg Grammar, mocks, school exams, CAT4 outcomes, etc or teacher expectations of performance.

We have tried endlessly to rationalise the outcomes, perhaps DC had a bad day, greater competition, however, in discussion with a few at school others facing similar outcomes, we have come to ponder, was there a glitch or ISEB malfunction with the exam format questions/answers or set up issues within the inviligation centres?

Hence, curious to see if thus is an isolated school issue or one felt amongst other parents feeling disillusioned with 11+ choices we are forced to accept..

@ElonanotAlone we have experienced something similar. Our DD was projected to get in to top selective schools, performing at the top set of her cohort all through prep school, average CAT 134 etc etc but for two highly selectives she didn't even make interview (feedback was ISEB scores did not make cutoff) and waitlisted by two schools which by projection she should have comfortably received offers from. We were lucky we had two other schools that did not jump on the ISEB bandwagon and have a very good offer but she missed out on our top choice because of a "bad day".
I don't exactly know what happened as those schools declined to give more information other than her ISEB scores didn't make the cut off. I think it was a shame that consistency in her results through the years and other factors did not come into play until after you make the scores cut off. Was hard having to explain all this to a 10 year old who had worked so hard!

@ElonanotAlone So glad you started this as it truly haunts us. We had absolutely the same issue with our DD although ours had factors on the day which massively impacted. Poor exam conditions for DD’s group, barely a break and full stretch sitting at another school.

Completely unfair that Prep schools were allowed to stagger components over a week and children sitting in a familiar environment.

The poor feedback we received and sadly no interview from those ISEB schools simply looking at the scoring. The quartile feedback shocked us all as completely unaligned with DD’s ability and track record.

She had always come out strongly in any practice mock tests or Atom ISEB she did when we subscribed end of October. Maths was always her weakest but still not below average. Even DD is convinced they must have messed it up because she knew exactly where she might have slipped up and not enough to result in such poor quartile feedback.

She did brilliantly for her other schools applied to who used CEM or their own entrance papers.

There needs to be some redress. I think it is wrong for those who have a valid reason and the results are out of tune with a child’s academic performance. I really do not feel the ISEB is a plausible exam if factors on the day and the child’s overall academic ability (school references and reports) are carefully considered.

[quote MumsRule20]@ElonanotAlone So glad you started this as it truly haunts us. We had absolutely the same issue with our DD although ours had factors on the day which massively impacted. Poor exam conditions for DD’s group, barely a break and full stretch sitting at another school.

Completely unfair that Prep schools were allowed to stagger components over a week and children sitting in a familiar environment.

The poor feedback we received and sadly no interview from those ISEB schools simply looking at the scoring. The quartile feedback shocked us all as completely unaligned with DD’s ability and track record.

She had always come out strongly in any practice mock tests or Atom ISEB she did when we subscribed end of October. Maths was always her weakest but still not below average. Even DD is convinced they must have messed it up because she knew exactly where she might have slipped up and not enough to result in such poor quartile feedback.

She did brilliantly for her other schools applied to who used CEM or their own entrance papers.

There needs to be some redress. I think it is wrong for those who have a valid reason and the results are out of tune with a child’s academic performance. I really do not feel the ISEB is a plausible exam if factors on the day and the child’s overall academic ability (school references and reports) are carefully considered.[/quote]
As I said above, don’t assume all Prep schools did this. I know of several who didn’t and had them do the whole lot in one sitting . And of kids there who have fared similarly in that outcomes were not in line with their overall school performance and expectations. A friend has said that at her child’s prep, many didn’t get offers from ISEB schools and some are still waiting for wait list outcomes. This is a school that usually has incredibly strong outcomes and placements in the SW London and Surrey area

@springbloom It sounds like you're describing my DD and our experience. Always top of the cohort and let down by one of the four ISEB subjects where she was usually scoring very highly. I will always remember her tears when she found out she did not get those interviews. Truly heartbreaking especially given how hard she had worked.
I agree this ISEB system is not viable and will need to change. Yes children can have a bad day, but I have been through many 11+ sessions with previous DCs and I never experienced (and heard about) such unexpected results with the traditional 11+ exams. Alternatively, if independent schools decide to keep on solely relying on ISEB pre-test, they will have to genuinely take into account primary school referrals and past school reports, which clearly most secondary schools did not do this time, despite what they said initially. It was all about scores/numbers.

Is there anyone reading this thread, thinking that their DC was decidedly average/above average ( but definitely not top set) and was surprised to be offered a place or scholarship in the very selective indies?
because a) that would prove the point; b) are you worried that the DC might really struggle at the said selective schools ?

@Sterou

Is there anyone reading this thread, thinking that their DC was decidedly average/above average ( but definitely not top set) and was surprised to be offered a place or scholarship in the very selective indies? because a) that would prove the point; b) are you worried that the DC might really struggle at the said selective schools ?

I agree. That was my earlier point, it's almost unheard of to hear about children who punched way above their weight (mine did exactly as expected though I haven't had any visibility of the score)

If the theory of error was true these schools would be finding they have lower calibre students in the cohort this year. I'd be surprised if this proves to be the case.

(And to clarify when I say mine did "as expected" I mean not achieving a place at the stretch super selectives)

@Sterou @LondonMummer you’d only assume that children had got places way above their ability if your theory was that there had been some vast mark swapping mix-up. Other types of system errors could be possible, for instance, isolated cases of the system failing to record batches of answers. It’s harder to think of an IT glich that would accidentally put someone’s mark up.

I really hope they return to the paper tests next year and aren’t tempted by how cheap and easy ISEB makes things.

We have the example of a child who got into 2 x selective London Day school (top 30/40ish) but did not get offers from two schools that set their own exams and are around 100ish in the leagues. Basically, the child got the aspirational ISEB ones but not the 2x backups !

Obviously there could be all sort of reasons to it but that the family was nonetheless pretty shocked !!

DD got into all other non ISEB schools applied for and one of which is one of the most academically selective schools in the UK (thankfully one of the ISEB schools which overlooked the results as they relied on an excellent report, head references, extended writing, 1hr interview (comprehension / problem solving and presentation given to the head).

We are certain the unexpected ISEB outcome was due to poor exam conditions and issues that day and several children were very upset. If it was not the factors - then it can only be some unknown blip as the feedback does not correspond at all with DD’s take in how each prt went. She is very strong at NVR / VR and English. Yet feedback on all four aspects including her weakest of them: Maths were all the same and below the average standard. Makes zero sense as DD felt despite the physical conditions of the exam sitting she kept composure and stayed as focused as she could. There was nothing unfamiliar or that she felt she struggled with other than the maths getting very hard.

It is a complete mystery...

@MumsRule20 and all

We've also been baffled by the ISEB results.

I managed to get DD's results from one of the schools and they make no sense.

In assessments at school over a period of time and on Atom DD was consistently 1st quartile in VR / NVR and English and high 2nd quartile in Maths. On NVR she has always been off the charts with very very high 1st quartile (99+ percentile) and is often faster than my DH (who is also good at that kind of stuff) at finding the answers.

The results from the exam were way lower than anything she had scored before and as many others have reported, she also said it went well on the day but the results appear to paint a different picture:

English - lower first quartile
NVR - mid second quartile
VR - high third quartile
Maths - mid third quartile

All very odd!

I'm so glad you set up this thread! We had a shocker with the ISEB as well. We only had a few weeks practising with ATOM and DC was in the top quartile pretty consistently. in the mocks Luckily we got another school (non-ISEB). We sat the ISEB at school -it was sat pretty early in the process and I think the longer you have to practice the better you are (according to ATOM scores can be massively improved).A couple of the children took the test later and did really well so think practice makes a huge difference. There was a bit of a mixed bag of results in the year - some of the children did well but many have been left with no school at all. I know that the algorithym means that you have to answer the first few easy questions correctly to get the harder questions later so no idea if that is what my DC did but the results did not correspond to school performance or ATOM tests. They were not the only ones but a couple of the children did really well so who knows? Definitely not a nice year to have to sit any sort of assessment.

Such an interesting thread.

How many exams did your children sit? If ISEB it is just once and multiple schools can use those results right?

I think at the end of the day a result of a test does not tell you much at all. But they have to have some way to choose because demand outstrips supply.

We think our DC did well because DC had to sit so many tests.

State Grammars X 3
Banding Tests x 3 (3 different academy type schools and these were shorter 45 min type NVR tests)
Private / ISEB X 2 (Our DC sat ISEB in one go).
So 8 different exam experiences.. ISEB once.

In terms of context School in year 5 was not great at all and prep for grammar and independents was started really late.

I think DC and we knew from somewhere that with the ISEB if you got a question wrong early on it went to a softer type question and you had to answer questions correctly in order to unlock more challenging questions. So if you made a mistake early on it would be hard to recover if that makes sense?

Re exam conditions I suppose you could always ask for an exam condition report. DC did say that sometimes another child was disruptive and had to be removed or warned.

I think all is proved to us is that DC got practice at exams. We are pleased it went well but it only proved that DC stuck at it and was motivated to sit them.

Atotalshambles I wonder if Atom somehow gave you a false sense of security then? But I think you are right these tests are all about practice?

How many exams did your DC sit?

Also maybe because state grammar areas and academy schools have their own tests my DC just got in more practice at exams? I know DC never got tested much in the same way at State School. State school did do stats and did do some end of year tests but they are not the same type as 11 Plus.

How many separate exams did other children sit? I wonder if that is a factor?

I think practice for the ISEB makes a huge difference so if you were able to sit the exam in January as lots of the children did then it would have made a big difference. We were told that we had to sit the exam in Nov and that sitting at the primary school was the best option (in child's normal environment). In actual fact lots of the children ended up sitting it in the new year and some towards the end of January. Also sitting the exam at primary school was a bit of a distracting environment - some of the children were chatting and the teacher left the room at some points apparently. I think sitting at the prospective school would have been much better. I also think sitting the exam over a few days would have made a difference too. Ultimately DC got a place at a school they were happy with but lots of the children were not so lucky. Never a fair process in a normal year but feels even more unfair this year. I also think applying from a prep school would have made a massive difference in terms of the child being well-prepared for this year.

Atotalshambles yes we sat it early december, but by then DC had done 2 grammar tests, and it was all in one go and although there was distraction DC was used to sitting an exam.

I would be interested to know how many tests other children sat?

At the prep schools I’m aware of it was done in November and early December. All in one go. And as I said one of those had unusually low results from what i understand from ISEB schools

Things I can think of:

1. Those who sat grammar schools as mentioned have less nerves. Many from preps do not sit for grammars, but they have the same environment though - which could be more stressful because they know the test decides their future
2. Differences between ISEB GL, ISEB CAT4 and CEM - as mentioned
3. Regarding maths - visiting one of the top selective schools before - a math teacher told us that one problem with 'tutoring' is that kids are pushed too much - for them to know super higher maths - formulas and all - but the foundations are not strong particularly for heavily worded problem question.
4. The issue of adaptive - Isn't there a trial/getting to know the system first before the real thing (I might be wrong here)? Or if one or two of the first two trial/real questions is/are wrong - the system will not go to the more challenging questions? Or if having two consecutive challenging questions wrong - then it resets to easy? I do not know!

I hope your kids will settle/ be happy/ look forward to their new schools.
Bright kids should thrive anywhere - given the right school/home support and environment!

Yes admissions staff do read Mumsnet and we do to have children.

Before last year, entry was via either an 11+ exam or 13+ via the common entrance exam.

This all changed for various reasons, so that now (for a year 6 child) there are in fact 3 stages: (1) 11+ exam (2) defered year 9 ISEB pre test for 13+ but must include the 11+ exam (3) limited places via the 13+ common entrance for 2023.

What was evident last year, was that when the ISEB pre test was used (for the delayed year 9 entry) a significant number of pupils did very well in the ISEB, but those same scores did not correlate/translate at all with their performance in the second stage 11+ exam . Those second stage 11+ scores would not have been adequate for a place if they had applied for the 11+ entry.

Was that due to ISEB or the internal 11+ exam?

This year primary/prep head teachers and parents are highlighting great discrepancies between ISEB scores and internal CAT or standardised attainment scores.

By asking for examples of pupils school written work/ standardised scores /listening to primary or prep heads who actually know the pupils has really helped to navigate the discrepancy in scores.

By doing so, it is clear that some pupils with high ISEB scores were actually very poor at english/maths/NVR, while some with poor ISEBs actually were the outstanding candidates when the actual primary/prep written work and CAT scores were reviewed.

I appreciate that many Independent schools have just used the ISEB scores and not gone the extra mile and that has lead to real disappointment for many on here. I can only offer you all my fullest sympathy.

Just like parents and heads, admissions do not see the ISEB papers or the questions/english passage/answers, all wish they could.

A written paper is the fail safe option and hopefully many schools will return to that, even if it takes up significant staff time, rather than an independent adaptive test that none can scrutinise.

All your dear children have done extremely well, just being able to get themselves ready for any test in this most difficult year for pupils and families. We wish them all the very best in their next stage of education.

spring67 fascinating, I gather private or independents schools have relationships with prep schools.... but would you also contact a state school? And what is the state school declined to provide information?

For example my DC was not really provided with online work until a few weeks into this latest lockdown. My DC did do work but it could not be assessed because it was home set so there was no feedback apart from how wonderful.. I did send some work into school precisely because I was concerned that they may just forget about DC. If they couldn't tell me DC's cat scores I can't imagine them telling an admissions team?

Also you mention that Heads and parents are highlighting great discrepancies between ISEB scores and internal CAT or standardised attainment scores, but I would not get internal CAT scores from my state school, they stopped tested in February of the start of the Covid pandemic.

So all I had to go on was testing sites like atom and I can say DS's scores dramatically increased due to practice if that makes sense?

I also think DC got good at taking exams, it may not actually be an assessment other than DC can handle exams and pressure?

spring67 do admissions ever take into account the school the children may come from?

So if it is a private school with lots of provision versus a failing State school is that something that the admissions team ever look at?

Thank you @spring67 for sharing your experience being on the other side. It is very interesting and does confirm that the ISEB pretest has its shortfalls, probably due to this complex algorithm/adaptability nature which is clearly not up to scratch otherwise one would not see such discrepancies in scores. I just wish all secondary schools had been like yours and had gone the extra mile in the selection rather than solely relying on (flawed) ISEB scores.
In hindsight I think we had a luck escape (and DD still got into her first choice school anyway).

@spring67 you should an Ask Me Anything!