SW London boys, 11+ grammars and independents

[Jumpalicious]

Hello, I know there’s an excellent thread for the girls. Not sure if there’s one for the boys? Anyone want to come on board? I know we can’t divulge details of round two grammars since there will be late sitters, but was thinking more of a support thread. Any takers?

@Jumpalicious

Funny you say that, because I now truly think there was a major c*ck up !! and whilst I am very happy with my DS final output, I know some of the lovely parents on this thread have expressed otherwise. Additionally in my prep school, there are some VERY disgruntled parents for 13+ process.

Is it worth raising a new thread "ISEB c*ck up 2020" ? I received a couple of PMs on this too, I know some would love to vent out and possibly officially complain!

jumpalicious. We had the same agonising decision last year: Tiffin versus a top all boys selective independent (we'd got the independent choice down to one school at that stage)

I hope this helps you, and any family looking at the same choice. I could have done with this last year..

We chose Tiffin in the end and it was completely the right choice for our family. We have experience of both independent school and grammar now within the family, so I can talk about the differences in general between private and grammar (in my experience), but also Tiffin specifically.

Really happy with Tiffin so far.

We've just had a parents evening. The teachers seem good and know my DS well (I did wonder whether they would in a class of 31 boys). DS in a class of super clever boys, but who also know how to have fun (lots of Xbox gaming during lockdown!). There are a few boys who are out of this world clever who stick out a bit, but the other boys accept them (my DS actually likes not being the cleverest kid in the class!). Lockdown provision has been excellent. It's quite a strict school with lots of rules and regulations, but I think the boys need that, and hasn't been a problem. Music, if you like it, is truly outstanding, and they encourage each boy to take up an instrument. Everyone has a chrome book for school and homework which works well (compared to the indie which doesn't specify which laptop pupils should have; consequently there is a lot of peer pressure, which I don't like). You would have to check the policy on this for the independent school you have to choose from. Mobile phones are not allowed on at Tiffin during the day.

The sport provision is great for a state school. They don't have the funds to pay for lots of ex-professional sports coaches, flashy sports facilities etc, but it has been more than enough for my DS. He is looking forward to getting back to post school rugby / cricket coaching and Friday afternoon games at their sports grounds in Thames Ditton (they bus them up there, but they need to make their own way home). There is also a brand new sports hall on the school site with updated changing facilities.

The PTA is really active - lots of motivated parents at the school, which is always a good sign.

In terms of choosing, it does depend on the family circumstances, the schools you are choosing between and, of course, the child . I personally could not (and do not) see c£150k worth (fees rise every year) of value in paying for the independent school for my DS versus Tiffin, but that was a completely personal decision and everyone is different.

You get a better customer service (teachers and staff on call any time, more or less) , smaller class sizes, shiner / better facilities with an independent school. In my experience the children are more spoon fed at an independent (my DS is motivated and wants to do well so doesn't need that). It is a nicer experience, but you pay for that. I try to avoid contacting Tiffin unless I really need to as I know they're so busy, but that's probably me. Any contact I've had, including form tutor and head of year, has been good. They are quite matter of fact and to the point, but not a problem. You definitely get more of a touchy-feely vibe at an independent school.

I love the fact Tiffin is mixed socially and ethnically. It has worked really well. My DS has a range of friends from across all backgrounds. I was worried at first as all of his peers went to comps or independents (only he and one other got a Tiffin place) so he didn't know anyone when he started, but because it is selective, lots of boys start without knowing anyone. The head said that the boys last year came from 100 different schools.

They do Latin as standard (which I was really keen on - you can also do Mandarin as an extra) and all boys do dance for two years, which, amazingly, my DS really enjoys. Drama is great too.

At a top independent I would expect you would get the contacts which may help in the future , but I think that this will become less of a thing going forward with the move by top companies to widen their access in terms of recruitment (this is happening already)

I would think the choice would be down to finances and attitude; some families have money from inheritance, bonuses etc they can spare, and others would only ever consider a private education for their DC and, if they didn't have the income, would make sacrifices for it. It depends on what you see as value for money - it's a very personal decision

If we hadn't got Tiffin, then we would have gone with the independent and tried to make it work financially. However, luckily we didn't need to and don't have that stress.

Happy to answer any specific questions. Good luck.

@TiffinIndieChoice
Thanks for taking the time to write this up ! Could not agree more. You and I need to meet :-) lol

Sterou pleasure! Hope it helps.

Thanks @TiffinIndieChoice for writing this detailed analysis.

We have DS1 at Independent, but DS2 has a decent chance of getting Tiffin from waiting list so weighing everything up, as he's otherwise going to his brother's school.

My biggest worry is DS2 is bright but not overly academic IYKWIM - he likes sport A LOT - and I wonder whether those sort of boys go to Tiffin, but your post has reassured me.

I am really not sure how he will feel about dance - he's basically footie mad.

I really like the mix but also worry about a lot of helicopter parenting which if I'm honest I am really trying to escpae. DS was not overly tutored.

One other worry: he is good at Maths and English, but seems to be showing more inclination towards writing as he gets older. Does Tiffin cater for that? There seems to be a really strong Maths/STEM focus?

TIA

@TiffinIndieChoice that is really helpful to hear.

May I ask another question: what would you (or anyone on here!) do if the choice is a top indie with a 100% bursary (which I will lose if my income goes up, which it might) versus tiffin. I do not know what to do. I'm a single parent, my husband died some years ago, so have no-one close to consult.

Hi Goingcrazy101. My DS is LOVES sport. Football is not one of their major sports, but they do House football (and maybe a club), if that's really his thing. My DS played a few football matches in a tournament for his house team before lockdown, which he really enjoyed, although was annoyed his team came third!

Rugby is really good, and because a lot of boys come to the school without having played before, my DS is hoping he'll get into the A team (we'll have to see!). They are one of the top state schools in the country for cricket. It is not going to compete with an independent school for sport, as I said before, but compared to the vast majority of state schools, the sports provision is very good (the deputy head at the top independent school we were considering even acknowledged that).

One of my DS's good friends is an excellent footballer and continues to play for club out of school - that's a compromise his parents were willing to make in order to go to Tiffin. My DS wasn't keen on dance at first , but they do funky, modern dance which he now enjoys, and improves his Tik Tok moves, Yes, there are some helicopter parents, for sure, but also a lot of normal ones (like me, I would like to think). There were certainly a large number of helicopter parents at the independent school we were considering.

My DS is also more humanities focused. That was a concern of mine at first as I had the same perception, but I don't see any evidence of a focus on STEM . He is doing well in all subjects and the humanities teachers seem good so far. His English teacher seems great and provided him with a specific reading list as told her he really enjoyed reading Animal Farm. Saying this, there are seem REALLY clever mathematicians, but they are on another level and in their own small group of kids.

Hope this helps.

@lookhappy I think in your situation I would go for Tiffin.

That choice would also be favourable when it comes to uni applications in the future. There is a real focus on attracting more kids from state schools now.

Also if there is any chance you may loose some of your bursary I would stick with the certainty of Tiffin which is a top school.

Having said all that it is also important to ask your son. Where would he like to go? His happiness is the most important thing.

Hope that helps somewhat.

That is a tough choice lookhappy. I'm afraid I can't advise as only you will know if you are willing to take the risk if the % goes down, and the impact it will have on you, your family and your stress levels. I do know that independent schools regularly reassess bursaries so you may have to come to terms with it at some point over the 7 years. The problem is that there is unlikely to be a place come up again at Tiffin, until 6th form at least.

@lookhappy
You will not lose the bursary. You MIGHT lose a small percentage as years go on and your salary increases. However by definition you can then afford any small contribution you have to make.

You have been offered a wonderful opportunity at top Indie at very little cost (travel and lunch?).
As good as Tiffin is, I would snap their hand off ;-)

Thanks @TiffinIndieChoice that is really helpful.

@lookhappy, as mentioned before, you would not loose the whole bursary.

Personally, make an appointment with the bursar or the Head and discuss your situation. Schools would also look and take on a pastoral responsibility for your child. I very much doubt that they will leave dry.

Before making a decision on what could happen or be best between Tiifin and an Indie, best to talk to the school, so you know for a fact your options.

Thank you all. I have spoken to the bursar. The school has said it will not leave us high and dry. That I will only be expected to pay if I have the means. But they could not specify what this means (apparently it is a big equation based on all sorts of things - home owner ship etc, not just salary rises).

With this in mind, Tiffin or a top indie? Will my son always feel like the poor boy (I don't think the school is at all like that) but, inevitably, he will be around some super wealthy people. Will he feel inferior? He already has a lot to deal with. Or will an independent just be perfect - more pastoral care perhaps? New opportunities he might not otherwise get? Thank you again.

To clarify: they couldn't say "If one has an income of £x, you will have to pay % of the fees". They said it was much more complicated than that - and each person was individually assessed and the full picture looked at.

lookhappy. I wouldn't worry about your son being perceived as a "poor boy". There will be others on a bursary. Also, it's London/Surrey, there will be a real mix of parents. Yes, there will be super wealthy families, but also parents who need to both work to pay the fees, or some who can only afford it as family are paying . It will be more mixed than you think. If you have the opportunity, choose the school you feel he will be the happiest at. An independent school will have staff employed for pastoral care, specifically. As long as you come to terms with the fact that you may not be on 100% forever, but if your salary increases, then as another poster said, you'll be able to afford it. Bursars are not unreasonable.

To me it sounds like a great opportunity.

Hi lookhappy, well done to your son.

Is there anything that the indie can offer that Tiffin can’t? Eg a particular sport/music provision? What is the commute like for both schools?

It’s a very difficult decision. I’m sure that the indie wouldn’t leave you in the lurch but I can understand that it would be good not to have to worry about that at all.

Thanks both! It is a slightly easier commute to the independent (but there is not that much in it).

I honestly don't know if the independent offers specific things that Tiffin doesn't. It will have more football. Probably more co-curricular things. Better facilities. But is the teaching much different? I don't know the answer to that! Not being stressed about potential fees has a big appeal for me.

My son desperately wants to go to the independent, but I think that is partly because he visited it with his school and was wowed by it (whereas he has never visited Tiffin - because of COVID). I, too, feel like I'm making a decision in a slightly blind way!

Lookhappy. It will have more co curricular and better facilities, as you say. That's what (other) people are paying for! I wouldn't say better teachers, but smaller class sizes (24/25 vs 31) so you could say teaching would be more focused on the child.

As many have said on here before, it will be nicer, not necessarily better. To me (and easy for me to say) it sounds as if you are worrying a bit unnecessarily, but understandable to turn down Tiffin. If your son wants to go to the independent, send him there. Not many have a 100% bursary!

I think the super wealthy are at the boarding schools....

If your son really wants the independent school then I think that’s your answer. They obviously very much want him too!

I can understand your worry about the bursary but you are probably overthinking it. If it’s what your son wants then I don’t think you should give it up because of a small risk that will probably never materialise.

One more t thing to consider in terms of costs.

I don't know how Tiffin works in financial support for trips, etc. Independent schools tend to offer support with trips, uniforms, etc. A former colleague got everything given.

When the bursars said they take each case individually, that's what they mean. Your salary, unless you are warning around 6 figures after tax, they will see the whole picture.

Tiffin has a 1k voluntarily donation they asked to parents. It is voluntary, but I don't know if kids find out who donates or not. What I'm trying to say is that in this area the social and economical divide is unavoidable. We try to ground our child and despite the difference of our financial situation and most of his peers, he thrives and doesn't feel any less.

I would probably do a con and pro list. Take all real costs such as sports gear, uniforms, trips, etc into consideration. The number of students per classroom, etc and hopefully that will help you make your decision.

Earning not warning

Kids do not find out who contributes to the Tiffin Education Fund. It's purely voluntary and the a stage is £43 a month.

• the average is £43 a month

Have any of the boys indie schools WLs started to move yet?