DD Year 8, struggling at grammar

[BaconAndAvocado]

Had a heart to heart with DD earlier this evening. She feels that she shouldn't be at grammar school as she finds it really hard. She sad that her recent test scores have been very low.

We haven't had any feedback from the school recently (for obvious reasons) so I don't know how she presents in class etc.

Before lockdown she had found it hard settling into Year 7 and had friendship issues. All seems loads better on the friendship front but now this!

I'm not sure whether I should contact the school or accept that she may always find it hard.

Bump

Did she have a lot of tutoring to get in?

Didn’t want to read and run. Don’t have direct experience but it sounds like it would be worth asking to speak to form tutor or head of year and get a read on what they think. She may be happier ridding high in a good comp if there is one locally but if friendships are good could be a tough move. Good luck whatever you decide 🙂

Absolutely you should contact the school. They can't support her if they don't know she is worrying about this.
It may be that she is doing fine but having a crisis of confidence.
Or they may acknowledge that she's struggling and be able to give some tips and support to help her.
The very last thing you should do is nothing.

Oh your poor DD OP and poor you, it must be heartbreaking.

I'm not actually a teacher but have done outreach in schools and have experience with grammars as I live in a grammar area. From my experience what she's feeling is very common. Grammars are full of perfectly bright kids (especially girls) who feel stupid. I remember talking to a maths teacher at a grammar school who said the girls who were probably getting a 6 in maths, a perfectly good grade, genuinely believed they were terrible at maths. It does create a bit of a negative cycle as they can then lack moral - despite the fact they're perfectly capable and in another school would be considered really bright.

Can you speak to the head of year (on the phone or by email) and see what they say. I would also find out from DD what's really going on - has she just had a bad week with a few tough tests or has she been feeling this way for a while. Does she need help with revision technique? Is she organising her homework OK? Is there a particular subject she finds hard? I wonder what the schools ethos is. I do know some grammar schools have a tendancy to scare students into success. They set difficult tests and know they have a bright motivated cohort who will run away and work even harder. They can also have a bit of a sink or swim attitide and don't really support students much. That's certainly not true of all grammars though so hopefully support is available for DD at her school

I imagine a lovely half term break will do her lots of good too.

Did she have a lot of tutoring to get in?

What's that got to do with anything? It's a complete myth that you can tutor a child beyond their natural ability to pass the 11+. No one expects anyone to approach any other exam without preparation!!

@HunkyPunk

To be fair that's not actually true. You can definitely teach an average child to get through the 11+ with enough work. There's actually a huge amount of evidence to that effect - there is also a massive advantage to just living in a middle class home and being exposed to a wider range of vocabulary and reading material (having a large vocabulary and being able to spell is a big part of VR).

I don't think that's going to be a massive issue here though. Even if DD was tutored heavily she won't be the only one in her year who was. It's very very common.

@HunkyPunk
From reading the threads here lots of people seem to advise tutoring from a young age to get into grammar schools.

OP my DD was the same as your DD. Very tough year 7 and found it very difficult to make friends too. The friends stuff resolved towards the end of year 8 but the academic struggles didn’t. Her self esteem has taken a massive bashing. We’ve discussed moving her every year right up to the third term of year 9. By then she didn’t want to leave her friends but I massively worry about the longer term impact on her self esteem of always feeling never quite good enough. In hindsight I very much wish I’d moved her in year 8. She’s year 11 now, desperate to stay on into 6th form with her friends but unlikely to get enough points for that.

Definitely talk to school. Don’t ignore it. In my heart of hearts I always knew DD was borderline for grammar and without tutoring would never have passed but as others have said everyone was doing it and we were more relaxed than many ie 45mins per week only not English,maths and 11+ tutors!!

You can definitely teach an average child to get through the 11+ with enough work.

Surely that goes for anything, though. Why is the 11+ the only exam where it seems to be considered immoral to give your child some practice? When Secondary schools give extra tuition and revision classes to try to get children up to their target GCSE grades, it's considered to be helping the children to reach their potential, rather than forcing them to punch above their weight.

Yes, passing the 11+ does require some particular skills (which are not taught in state primaries, btw), but that's not to do with ability. If you don't have the ability, then nothing on earth will give you that. If you pass an exam, then by definition, you were capable of passing it, surely? Granted, some will have to have put in more effort than others, but that's so for many things in life.

I would look to support your DD by creating a proper study routine and making sure she knows how to study and revise.

It is certainly true that some DC will need to work harder than others to keep up at grammar school. But I would be looking to make sure she is working hard and has a good study routine in place before taking drastic measures.

It is highly unlikely that all of the DC who have outperformed her in tests are geniuses (a small minority will be). It is far more probable that they know how to revise and have put in hard work. Is your DD coming home and doing her homework and revision or is she reaching straight for Netflix?

This is why I'm not keen on expanding grammars. 95% of parents insist their kids are in the 20% for whom a grammar school education is the best choice. It's hard work that doesn't come easily to everyone.

HunkyPunk the difference is that if you tutor a child like mad for GCSE and they manage to get a 9 - that's it, they've got their 9, end of story. But tutoring an average ability child like mad for the 11+ is going to potentially determine where they go to school for the next 7 years, and might end up with them being in a school that's not right for them. IME it's not just about ability, it's about outlook - the child who will really thrive at a grammar is not just the one who's capable of doing the work, it's the one who actively enjoys being stretched, who has a real interest in academic work - the type who'll enjoy being entered for a maths Olympiad or chatting to their teacher about the intricacies of French grammar. If you've got a child who's fairly able but not terribly academically inspired, particularly if they're likely to need ongoing tutoring to keep up, then they're probably not going to flourish in a grammar school environment.

I would talk to the school. See if she is genuinely struggling or just feels as if she is. Then take it from there. Look at other school options if you feel it will be the right thing to do, but make sure there is a genuine issue.

My DD is one of the high flyers at Grammar and she finds it hard! It is hard, they work fast and at a high level.
My DD is not a natural at maths though and that makes her feel as if she's struggling. She had a lovely teacher in yr7 who put it this way to her - she is average in a class which is full of above average students. If she was in a class with kids with a normal range of ability, she would be one of the top students.
Lockdown has probably made going back into school really hard work for many kids. I think with high school generally kids have to be much more organised these days. You do have to be on top of both course work and homework and falling behind can quickly make it feel quite chaotic.
Take half term to catch up. See if there are any specific topics she's finding hard.
My DD is in yr 9 now and seems to have finally found her feet more socially which helps a lot.

Do contact tutor or head of year. Find out if there are any grounds to her belief and let them know she is feeling like this. Do factor in the emotional roller coaster of puberty too, especially when periods are just starting.

That said, I remember reading that mixed ability teaching benefits highest ability girls who have low confidence. Some clever kids thrive as a bigger fish in a less competitive pond.

When she says her recent test scores have been very low are they actually very low? Is she a perfectionist who expects to get top scores all the time? Are they low compared to other pupils? Are they actually low objectively if they weren't compared to a grammar school class (e.g. it's "B" grade work which is actually pretty good but half her class is doing "A" grade work?)

Do you feel that she scraped into grammar school or was she a pretty high flier in Year 6 (will give you an idea as to whether this is or isn't the right school for her)

I agree with others that you should contact the school. If it is a case that she will always find it hard, then I would suggest considering moving her elsewhere - if she's confiding in you now that she's worried, struggling for another 4 years is probably not the best plan.

Finally, does your daughter have an idea about how to "fix" the issue? When my DS comes to me (rarely) with school concerns, it's often because he wants me to do "something" - even if he doesn't voice it himself. So for example, when he came and told me he thought he would fail Physics GCSE, he wanted to get a tutor - but he wanted me to be the one to suggest that.

@BaconAndAvocado I would definitely contact the school to get their take on it. Girls are notorious for putting a lot of pressure on themselves and when put together in a competitive grammar environment it can feel worse. Here’s the thing though - in every single school, someone has to be bottom. Outlook and positivity, resilience and attitude to that depends on whether your DD can cope. Some children are fine with it, for others being the top of a non selective school can actually be far better for them mentally. I wouldn’t have a knee jerk reaction to this, take your time, but moving her to a different school might be a solution.

Here’s the thing about grammars. They are not just full of bright children, the pace of learning there is far faster and in depth. Even bright children can struggle. Like it or not they do also have a significant number of children who have been heavily tutored to pass. I know several who were averagely bright, tutored like bonkers to get in, and are now having to continue tutoring just so their child can keep up. At one of our three local grammars they actually have a real problem with low level disruption in classes because these children are messing around to hide the fact they are struggling.

As a child who sat and passed the 11+ with flying colours with no formal tutoring (we practiced speed, exam technique and initially some familiarisation with the types of question at home using Bond and CGP books), I honestly don’t think you need lots of tutoring to pass if your child is naturally bright. We asked our head if she was grammar material and was met with a resounding yes, but also that we were exceptionally brave to not tutor.

If your daughter was heavily tutored then it would be playing on my mind whether or not the grammar environment is actually the right one for her. If she wasn’t then you absolutely need to work with the school on this. Teenage girls, especially in years 8 and 9, go through an awful lot hormonally and just general growing up. She might just need some help navigating through the self doubt.

Why haven't you heard from the school. Phone them and ask for a call with herEnglish teacher.

She may be beating herself up about not coming top. It can happen that kids who were always top of the form in primary go to grammar and find themselves with lots of other very bright kids. They can't all come top so some end up feeling like they're failing when they absolutely aren't.

“Why is the 11+ the only exam where it seems to be considered immoral to give your child some practice?”

It’s not immoral - parents are just doing what they feel is going to give their DC the best opportunity - it isn’t a fair system though. I’m Kent based. Tutoring for the 11+ started in Year 4 for quite a large number of her peers, all with middle class parents who could afford it. Some had parental tutoring from graduate level parents. DDs Primary like many doesn’t tutor for the 11+. When DH (Chair of Governors) & the Headteacher went through the 11+ back in 2018, there were a couple of questions not covered in the curriculum.

No child I know (and I appreciate some may but I’d suggest they are a minority ) who was put in for the 11+ without tutoring has passed it. So you end up with a two tier secondary school system - the D.C. with better off parents at the grammars and working class children at the non selective often less good Secondaries. There is something inherently wrong about this surely??

(As a rider, DH from a political standpoint completely against DD taking the 11+. I would have done the tutoring in a heartbeat though and DD ended up getting a music place at a good out of area secondary. As we’ve paid for years of music lessons I’ll hold my own hand up for gaming the system!).

But this is off thread a bit - OP definitely speak to the school and I agree, her perception of failure might not be a reality. I wouldn’t jump to any decision but monitor it over this year - they’ve only been back half a term and even with home schooling have missed out in 2020. Give it some time I think.

@SJaneS48

“Why is the 11+ the only exam where it seems to be considered immoral to give your child some practice?”

It’s not immoral - parents are just doing what they feel is going to give their DC the best opportunity - it isn’t a fair system though. I’m Kent based. Tutoring for the 11+ started in Year 4 for quite a large number of her peers, all with middle class parents who could afford it. Some had parental tutoring from graduate level parents. DDs Primary like many doesn’t tutor for the 11+. When DH (Chair of Governors) & the Headteacher went through the 11+ back in 2018, there were a couple of questions not covered in the curriculum.

No child I know (and I appreciate some may but I’d suggest they are a minority ) who was put in for the 11+ without tutoring has passed it. So you end up with a two tier secondary school system - the D.C. with better off parents at the grammars and working class children at the non selective often less good Secondaries. There is something inherently wrong about this surely??

(As a rider, DH from a political standpoint completely against DD taking the 11+. I would have done the tutoring in a heartbeat though and DD ended up getting a music place at a good out of area secondary. As we’ve paid for years of music lessons I’ll hold my own hand up for gaming the system!).

But this is off thread a bit - OP definitely speak to the school and I agree, her perception of failure might not be a reality. I wouldn’t jump to any decision but monitor it over this year - they’ve only been back half a term and even with home schooling have missed out in 2020. Give it some time I think.

No child? My ds has started at grammar this year, got an excellent score on his 11+, with no tutoring or even a single practice paper!

I got in myself many years ago with only the few practice papers we did at school and nothing more.

No child I know @AndThatsNotRight - because we can only both speak from our own experiences can’t we. I know of a couple who have taken the 11+ from DDs Primary who didn’t have coaching. The children I know who do go to grammar (and I live in a grammar county) all had either professional or parental tutoring. It’s not obviously a scientific analysis based on all children across Kent but I wouldn’t find betting that few here who go to grammars had some form of tutoring. A fairer system would be one in which all children had in school tutoring and all took the test or selection was made on SATS. Sorry but I maintain it is an unfair system.

Gah - that should have read ‘few here who go to grammars don’t have some form of tutoring’.

TBH to me, "Tutoring" for the 11+ doesn't just mean literally employing a tutor. It might mean working with parent/relative/family friend at home or working through practice papers in your own time which are then marked. Of course not all families have the time/ability to do this.

I can believe that not every child at grammar school had a tutor. I doubt there are more than a handful (and probably none at super selectives) that did no preparation at all and had never so much as seen a practice paper in advance.