DD Year 8, struggling at grammar

[BaconAndAvocado]

Had a heart to heart with DD earlier this evening. She feels that she shouldn't be at grammar school as she finds it really hard. She sad that her recent test scores have been very low.

We haven't had any feedback from the school recently (for obvious reasons) so I don't know how she presents in class etc.

Before lockdown she had found it hard settling into Year 7 and had friendship issues. All seems loads better on the friendship front but now this!

I'm not sure whether I should contact the school or accept that she may always find it hard.

Indeed, from the people I know with children at grammars, it’s either been professional tutoring (usually from Year 4) or graduate level parents coaching with the aid of books/papers. I’m not saying no child who came into the 11+ cold passes (although that’s been my direct lived experience) but I would imagine they are a minority.

To qualify what I said earlier (about whether a child is the right fit for grammar) I would definitely agree with others to speak to the school, in case it's more a confidence issue. When I went to Oxford (about 100 years ago) I nearly dropped out in my first year, because I found it hard to cope with being surrounded by incredibly bright people when I'd always been used to being top of the class. Luckily I had a lovely tutor who sat me down with a cup of coffee and told me it was absolutely fine to be middle or bottom of the cohort (someone has to be!) and that I was doing perfectly OK and in the nicest possible way I should get a grip. Once I'd accepted that, I was fine. (And in the end, we all got the same degree grade.)

My DD is at a selective school and as a result of a badly planned change of admissions arrangements, there are children who shouldn't be there. Hence it's a challenging cohort as the pace is too fast for some and perfect for many.

OP - talk to the school to find out the reality of her statements. If she is in the bottom quartile, I would move her. The pace gets much faster in year 9 and I wouldn't want my child to be merely surviving rather than thriving.

Going totally off topic here, but what if 50% of all grammar places went to children on FSM? They take the same test but as they are most likely at a tutoring disadvantage then their pass rate is adjusted for that specific cohort. Maybe combined with a “suitability for grammar school” assessment completed by their primary school?

All of a sudden you don’t need to live next door in a house with ridiculously high prices or be rich enough to access tutoring.

Exam results at non grammars will improve as not so many children from better off families will be getting into the grammars. But more importantly, children who would thrive in a grammar environment but don’t have access to tutoring etc would finally stand a chance of getting in.

The concept of grammar schools I have no issue with. The fact they have become places full of better off children whose parents can pay for tutoring to get them there I have a huge issue with.

Really it depends on what the options are. Is there a good noon selective school she can attend? Would she prefer that? Are all the other schools terrible and this is really the only decent option? In which case it's about her being used to not being top like she was at secondary school.

I totally feel her, I was top in everything at primary, no tutoring as this was WC family in the 90s and distinctly average at best once amongst the top kids. It's hard, and a move most be the best option

@Zodlebud - completely agree.

As a quick add on, I do have a ? about the assumption that the pace of non Selective’s might be a lot less pressured as I think that depends on whether the school streams. DD did very well in her SATS and is in the top streams at a good state secondary where the expectations and targets are high. I would agree though that OPs DC is likely to find themselves more one of the clever ones than decidedly average or bottom of the heap.

@Zodlebud this sort of arrangement (although not quite as radical) has been introduced for the Birmingham super-selective grammars in the last few years. They ring fence at least 25% of their places for pupil premium applicants, who have to reach a lower 'qualifying score' to get in - all pupil premium applicants who reach the score and live in the catchment area are offered a place, even if that amounts to more than 25% of PAN. If fewer than 25% of places are filled this way, pupil premium applicants from outside the catchment area get priority. There was a bit of a fuss when the 25% rule came in and a much bigger fuss last year when the catchment areas were introduced, as some wealthy areas just outside the city LEA area were excluded!

@crazycrofter That’s huge progress but probably not enough to level the playing field. I like the way the well to do Brummies were up in arms at the thought someone who had been disadvantaged all their life might all of a sudden get a better shot at improving their life chances.

Could be that everyone is struggling OP?

These are weird times

My DS is struggling a bit (also much more tired and anxious) when previously he didn’t

Can you find out? I think a lot of teens are struggling with school tbh

the difference is that if you tutor a child like mad for GCSE and they manage to get a 9 - that's it, they've got their 9, end of story.

Well yes, until their raft of heavily tutored-for 9s sees them studying 4 A Levels and being encouraged to go for Oxbridge.

the child who will really thrive at a grammar is not just the one who's capable of doing the work, it's the one who actively enjoys being stretched, who has a real interest in academic work - the type who'll enjoy being entered for a maths Olympiad or chatting to their teacher about the intricacies of French grammar.

at the idea of Grammars being full of that sort of child! I think it's quite dangerous to promote the idea that Grammar schools are ivory towers, full of intense academics. It puts some families off entering their children for the exam. Yes there will be a minority who are very academically inclined, but the majority play Xbox and hang around in town with their mates like most children of their age. I've had 3 ds go to our local state Grammar and they all thrived w/o any extra subject tutoring. None of them or their friends would ever have chatted about any subject full stop unless they were made to, let alone its intricacies! They all enjoyed school, mainly for the social side, and all did well, but one did describe it fondly as a bear pit!

Thanks all for your comments. I've got some really helpful insights and pieces of advice from you

I emailed DD's form mentor this morning. He mirrored what someone up-post suggested, that a lot of the students are finding the post-lockdown work/set up hard. He also commented that my daughter hasn't been flagged up as someone who is falling behind so maybe she isn't doing as badly as she thinks.

The school will be sending out progress checks the week after half term so we will revisit it then.

One of the points that has featured a lot in the thread is the issue of tutoring. DD had one hour a week tutoring, the same as the vast majority of her peers. When I first moved here from London, I thought I wouldn't have my children tutored. But, it really is the norm here.

@Zodlebud I think the ring fencing has happened already at many schools.
I can't recall the % at my DC's school but think it's 25%

@TheAnon1 - perhaps in some regions that happens but it doesn’t in Kent.

And good news @BaconAndAvocado - perception is a funny thing. Have they just done assessments? My DD has had a week solid of them which if that is the case would go some way to explain the feeling of pressure. Good luck!

Fair point HunkyPunk, but actually I disagree - it's perfectly possible to enjoy the intricacies of French grammar and love Xbox. In fact, one of the advantages of going to a grammar/selective school can be that you aren't seen as some kind of ivory tower weirdo for being interested in French grammar (or whatever). Maybe I made the point too strongly, but our experience of being in a selective environment is that it's cool to be clever, work hard, push yourself academically. And yes, the kids do talk about work (as well as football and Xbox), going by their WhatsApp chats. And from what I can gather they have very good relationships with their teachers and do talk about work with them too. My point was that if you don't have a basic interest in pushing yourself academically, then you're not likely to get the best out of a grammar school. That's not the same as suggesting that all grammar school kids are intensely academic and not interested in anything else.

SJaneS48 some Kent grammars do have PP places, but it's done school by school not as a blanket county thing. Generally not nearly as high as 25% though, I don't think. Primaries are also encouraged to encourage PP pupils to apply, and deprivation can be taken into account in the appeals process.

Very very few kids would get into a grammar school in London without masses of tutoring - because all the kids are being tutored around them. So the whole playing field is at another level. Many are also going for independent schools too some of which are super selective.

@AndThatsNotRight I'd have to assume wherever you are in the country your grammar school doesn't have masses of tutoring to the cohort as say in Kent or London.

Never heard of anyone getting into the likes of Tiffin for instance over in SW London, boys or girls, without masses of tutoring.

@TagMeQuick

Very very few kids would get into a grammar school in London without masses of tutoring - because all the kids are being tutored around them. So the whole playing field is at another level. Many are also going for independent schools too some of which are super selective.

@AndThatsNotRight I'd have to assume wherever you are in the country your grammar school doesn't have masses of tutoring to the cohort as say in Kent or London.

Never heard of anyone getting into the likes of Tiffin for instance over in SW London, boys or girls, without masses of tutoring.

We're in a grammar county, and my ds's best friend in primary has been heavily tutored since starting primary- think daily in school holidays, and 3 hours per day after school including things like music lessons as well.

However, my ds got 1 mark less than him in the 11+, despite his being adjusted down by 6 for age and his friends up by 4 for his, meaning my ds actually was quite substantially ahead!

I do feel for that child, he has no life except work, never allowed to play and if the tutoring ever stops, he'll be screwed.

My ds wasn't interested in going to the grammar so he chose to do no prep at all, but his grade was so good he considered it and decided in the end that he'd like to. He's just always assumed he'd go where his sister went- she didn't get in to the grammar.

I'm not at all saying that it's impossible to get in without tutoring, but some children do, and I think they're far better off than the ones that have been tutored.

Interestingly, my phone just autocorrected tutored to tortured... rather apt.

@AndThatsNotRight 🙄 to the implication that tutoring is some kind of torture. My DS comes out buzzing from her session as she's covering topics that are not presented in Year 6. It's just the way it is. You're also underplaying the meaning of torture.

OP, I'm glad you followed it up.

If your dd went to a state school and there are many there from private schools, especially with lockdown they might still be experiencing the benefits of their primary education. In yr 6 when state school children are working towards SATs, private school children can plough on with the yr7 curriculum. It evens out by about yr9. If she was privately educated and tutored for 11 plus then maybe she would be happier in a different school.

I don’t think there is any issue at all with tutoring. It can really boost DC’s confidence and while of course it helps with the 11+, there is also huge benefit longer term.

Asian countries that substantially outperform the U.K. educationally have a real emphasis on tutoring and after-school study. DH has relatives in South Korea and DC there are expected to spend virtually all their time after school studying!

I appreciate it boosts confidence and gives DC valuable practice in exam techniques but it doesn’t create a level playing field with all having equal opportunity. Essentially it creates a system of unequal provision and opportunity. Good for an individual DC but not the overall population.

@turlstreet, you’re quite right and I didn’t know about pupil premium places in Kent. You’re also right about the percentage figures just going on the quick look I had at Skinners and Judd (two local to me Grammars). Skinners has a massive 8 places compared to Judds 5, the PP pupils still have to pass the Kent test and are ranked according to their score. So they might not need to get as high a mark but they do need to pass. And to pass without the aid of tutoring or parental coaching that’s more of a struggle.

@Ecosse I completely agree. Tutoring can be a real confidence boost.

Why does anyone think there's something wrong with a bit of extra learning outside of school?

@AndThatsNotRight may have been blessed with a 0.0001% genetically gifted child - but that camp of kids is extremely small.

Grammar school is mostly made up of tutored kids.

Still don't think he'd pass the Tiffin test.

I know lots of children/teenagers at grammar schools, some "superselective" grammars. My observation from friends' children is that a child who likes to work hard, is organised and motivated (but "only" of average/upper average intelligence) can do really well at grammar school - I know a few of this ilk who got pretty much all 9s at GCSEs, super duper A -levels too. Meanwhile I also know some very very clever kids in these schools who do not work hard and have coasted and did not do as well. At the end of the day, there are tons of subjects and good study skills (e.g. writing vocab out in foreign languages/Latin) from Year 7 and revising in the holidays (even if just a bit), reading around a subject such as a science is the stuff that gets you there. If you are a lazy, disorganised bright spark it isn't enough. Also bear in mind that lacking a bit of confidence actually motivates many children to work hard and revise more. It is the over confident ones who don't always reach their full potential. So I think as long as your DD is happy with her friends and working hard and the teachers are happy with her it does sound like the right kind of environment for her. Often clever people are quite modest about their own abilities, it is quite typical especially in younger years.

[quote Sarjest]@AndThatsNotRight 🙄 to the implication that tutoring is some kind of torture. My DS comes out buzzing from her session as she's covering topics that are not presented in Year 6. It's just the way it is. You're also underplaying the meaning of torture.

OP, I'm glad you followed it up.[/quote]
Of course I'm not underplaying the meaning of it! It was funny that's all. And small amounts of tutoring are one thing, the example I have is very different to yours!