So Scottish kids won’t sit GCSE equivalent next year. Will England follow?

[NellyJames]

So the Scottish government have announced this today. Saying it wouldn’t be fair after all they’ve been through. So they’ll now be assessed with a mixture of CAGS and coursework. Will Gavin Williamson follow? My Y11 DD has not only missed the summer term but is now midway through a 2wk isolation. How many more times will that happen before the spring? Announcing this now allows for a smooth process with adequate moderation.

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-scotland-54423265

I have a dd in y13 and we think that he won't announce anything until spring next year so that the kids who aren't in school aren't roaming the streets There will be a point when grades are submitted and the grade can't be improved further so kids think what's the point.

Doesn't your school do end of year exams under public exam conditions? In our comp they set up a sports hall and from y7 they do end of year exams like it's GCSE with phones handed in, clear pencil cases etc so that it's not a shock or nerve wracking come GCSE. Most countries only test at the end of high school. Many English kids do GCSE, AS then A-level which is an excessive amount of testing.

I will be watching the retakes and results with great interest. I hope that they go smoothly and people get the correct results in good time

But England will have to follow Scotland’s lead on this one for there to be any kind of perceived level field for uni, apprenticeships, jobs and college.

Again, we have a completely different system, and your comment shows you just don’t understand it. Nobody is going to uni on the basis of Nat 5 qualifications. Uni is pretty much the only time our kids are competing with English kids to get the same place, and exams will still be in place for Highers that get you in to uni.

Nat 5s are only used for getting in to college or apprenticeships, and nobody is coming from London to do a bricklaying course at Forth Valley College. Same with jobs. There isn’t an influx of kids coming from Scotland to compete for admin jobs in Bognor.

This cry of disparity and unfairness because some 15 and 16 year olds are doing assessments for a year is ridiculous. There are far more important disparities in the English system that need to be addressed before you get your knickers in a twist with this one.

But Nationals aren't really GCSE equivalent, they're lower.

No they aren’t. They are equivalent to GCSEs.

My brother (educated in England, sat A Level) was offered a place at a Scottish university with the first year waived.

It was offered the same with my higher results because I was a mature student and was clear on which qualification I needed so didn’t need to do the first year which was common to 5 different courses. It isn’t a foundation year though, it isn’t there to “catch up” kids who have done highers. It is a completely different system.

[quote Notfeelinggreattoday]@TW2013 yes exactly only a few possibly thousand are home schooled , plus what did they do this year for them ? [/quote]
Most of them didn't get grades. It was a nightmare.

You would think that those who need to sit exams outside of a school (including adult learners) could easily be catered for but they were completely forgotten this year. There was some provision put in place to allow those with enough evidence to get a predicted grade but that relied on people having taken courses with approved distance learning providers. Many home educated children self-study without the aid of tutors or courses and those children are now effectively a year behind as they have been unable to move onto their next stage of education.

My son is doing Nat 5 maths this year but also is working through the GCSE maths syllabus for fun 😂. He finds Nat 5 maths more advanced than GCSE maths.

Students who study for Nat 5s are younger than their English counterparts but take much fewer subjects (6-8) which must make preparation easier.

@Aurea
Oh heck! my son is about to move across from GCSE maths to Nat 5 Maths. I thought the Nat 5 course was smaller - only about 2/3 of the sheer amount of the GCSE course? (realise that is not the same as difficulty level though).
I also heard that the content for the triple sciences had been reduced slightly for the Nat 5 syllabus?

Nat 5s are studied over one year hence the lesser content. I think the difficulty is greater though (according to him). He loves maths (top of his year) though and doesn't find any of it tricky. You can also take applications for maths Nat 5 which is like applied maths which some students prefer.

Another parent of a year 11, our school was great during lockdown - lots of online work, lots of contact with kids but it’s still not the same as being in school. Long term I would like to see the whole system move to mainly coursework with small % of Mark gained by exam but for this year I really feel continuous assessment/course work would be the fairest way for the kids. I hope we follow Scotland’s lead on this.

I’m worried DD’s year are going to be shafted. There seemed to be so much opposition towards CAGs for last year’s Y11s that I can’t see the government allowing it again next year.

@MintyMabel

I know it’s devolved but given these are the same children going to the same universities, the same jobs, apprenticeships etc there needs to be some level of similarities and fairness between them all.

Because the current system in England gives a fair crack of the whip to everyone? I’m sure that’s news to those who are at the blunt end of the attainment gap.

You seen to misunderstand. The kids will still need to reach the same level of attainment, it is just assessed in a different way. Scotland has done part exam part coursework in assessing final marks for decades. All it means is this year, the coursework will have a higher weighting.

I imagine DS is one of those at the blunt end of the attainment gap, we're up North and he's at one of the schools on the most recent poorest 300 in the country.

I don't understand how the CAGS work but I was led to believe that he can only do as well as previous cohorts at that school? If this is the case, he needs to sit the exams. He wants to sit them too.

I don't understand how the CAGS work but I was led to believe that he can only do as well as previous cohorts at that school? If this is the case, he needs to sit the exams. He wants to sit them too.
@Hellohah, I don’t think CAGs work like that at all. The algorithm that the government initially used did work that way which is why lots of bright kids from generally low achieving schools had their predicted grades downgraded by as much as 2 or 3 grades. However, with CAGs, your DS’s school will look at his mocks and other evidential pieces of work and predict what grade they think he’d get on the day. So one maths clear grade 9 child in a school that’s never had anyone achieve above a 6, could still be given a grade 9 with CAGs whereas the government’s super special smart secret algorithm 😉 would award him a 7.

I emailed gavin williamson a week or two ago but its been bounced back ??

Why cant they just do exams in english , maths and science as a compromise and teacher assessments in the other
After all maths and english is the must for most courses , and less exams to sit and study for
Continuous work and mock assessment for the others , with mock and continuous assesment also to be used for maths etc on case if a student having to self isolate

As the parent of a current year 11, I don't have particularly strong feelings about whether they go ahead with the exams or not. There are pros and cons either way.

I just want them to make a bloody decision quickly so that our poor kids know what to expect.

I agree with maybe exams for maths & English, but not science. The amount of science lessons Dd has of absolutely ridiculous for a child that has zero interest in the subject & will not be doing it after gcse - for combined sciences they sit 6 exams.

@NellyJames

I don't understand how the CAGS work but I was led to believe that he can only do as well as previous cohorts at that school? If this is the case, he needs to sit the exams. He wants to sit them too. *@Hellohah*, I don’t think CAGs work like that at all. The algorithm that the government initially used did work that way which is why lots of bright kids from generally low achieving schools had their predicted grades downgraded by as much as 2 or 3 grades. However, with CAGs, your DS’s school will look at his mocks and other evidential pieces of work and predict what grade they think he’d get on the day. So one maths clear grade 9 child in a school that’s never had anyone achieve above a 6, could still be given a grade 9 with CAGs whereas the government’s super special smart secret algorithm 😉 would award him a 7.

Thanks @NellyJames this is reassuring!

Although ... this makes me think about a comment DS's Geography teacher made at parents evening just before lockdown. He's had target grades for ages, but they also gave "working at" grades. In Geography, target is an 8, working at is a 7. She said not to worry at him being below target, he's doing great BUT she doesn't know what an 8 looks like, hence the 7.

I wasn't worried at the time, I think I am now :(

@nancy75, but my DD is doing 3 separate sciences and wants to do Maths, Physics and Chemistry A’levels then go on to do Physics of some sort at university so science is very important to lots of current Y11s.
All she wants is to know what’s happening so she can be prepared.

[quote NellyJames]@nancy75, but my DD is doing 3 separate sciences and wants to do Maths, Physics and Chemistry A’levels then go on to do Physics of some sort at university so science is very important to lots of current Y11s.
All she wants is to know what’s happening so she can be prepared.[/quote]
Your Dd has chosen the 3 science option, mine has been forced to do combined science which is still 6 exams - that’s an awful lot of work for a subject you have no interest in. Most kids don’t choose to do the 3 science option.

nancy75, I'm not really sure what the difference is between "forcing" kids to do science or "forcing" them to do maths and English? It isn't simply a question of whether or not they're interested, it's about educating them to a basic level in the core subjects that are deemed to be essential for them to function as effective adults. I'm sorry that your dd doesn't enjoy it, but that doesn't mean it is unimportant.

@AlexaShutUp

nancy75, I'm not really sure what the difference is between "forcing" kids to do science or "forcing" them to do maths and English? It isn't simply a question of whether or not they're interested, it's about educating them to a basic level in the core subjects that are deemed to be essential for them to function as effective adults. I'm sorry that your dd doesn't enjoy it, but that doesn't mean it is unimportant.

Maths & English is used to some degree by everyone in everyday life - science to the level they learn it isn’t. My point was more about exams rather than overall learning, it was suggested they just do maths, English & science exams - I don’t see why the science is given the same importance as maths & English, it certainly isn’t as useful to most children

I disagree, nancy75, I think there would be huge benefits to society as a whole if people had a better level of scientific understanding.

I would also add that I really wish that I hadn't been allowed to drop down to just one science when I was choosing my options.

But we are not talking about everyone having better scientific understanding, we are talking about the group of children doing their exams next year. Whether the science exam goes ahead or not the children will have covered the subject - my point is if we go down the route of only doing essential exams next year I don’t agree science falls in to that category.

I only mentioned science as seems often one science is needed for a lot of courses etc
But maths and english most important as they all have to re take if going on to further education and they haven't passed.

Someone upthread said it’d be ‘easy’ to switch to coursework. How? Especially as hardly any GCSEs are coursework - the huge majority are linear with a final exam. I think switching to coursework that is the same across England, moderated externally and is robust will be anything but easy. This needed to have been planned over the summer months. Govt knew what was coming.
If kids are at home isolating 2 weeks, in/out of school all year, have poor access to remote learning then how will the do coursework or be assessed by anybody? Fine if physically at school or have great remote learning but there’s still the same issues exam or no exam of covering the curriculum and being able to fairly assess learning.