Confused about mainstream school choices for special needs DS

[chickenlittlee]

Hello all.

I am at my wits' end trying to zero in on a secondary school for DS who has ASD, Speech and Language Delay, LD, so your thoughts will be greatly appreciated.

He attends a mainstream primary (with an EHCP and a TA) and has managed as he's a stringent rule-follower, so we've never had a complaint with his behaviour in school.

For years, he played 'alongside' children rather than with them (mainly due to delayed language - he first spoke in a proper sentence at the end of year 3). So on his birthday in year 4, I threw a big party inviting his entire class in an attempt to break the ice and get something going in the way of friendships. It worked, and he became friends with two other children. The children got invited to days out etc, and the friendship blossomed, and with that his confidence and self-worth. DS has been badly bullied in school, and these friends have stood up for him. He will be starting year 6 in September and now has a group of 4 friends he plays with. I am no longer as involved in keeping the friendship going as before, although there are times when I have to explain what DS meant/didn't mean as he struggles to articulate himself due to limited speech & vocabulary.

The school choices:

1. Very small, private school in Bolton (We are in Manchester) - 10 out of 45 students in school have SEN.
   Students love it there, small class sizes, mixed ability.
   DS knows no one though and we will also have to move closer, as commuting is not an option for him.
   It is going to be a massive change for him on all fronts. The school has a prep school too, so not many new students start at the same time in year 7.

2. Boys only faith school (we are of the same faith but not religious at all), which is where majority of boys from his school will attend.
   It's a new-ish school (3 years) so no ofsted yet, and they only got a proper SENCO last year.
   Obviously there is a big emphasis on religion which DS doesn't really understand. However, DS does want to attend here because his closest friends (2 out of 4) will be. Whilst there is no guarantee these friendships are going last, I am hoping familiar faces will be of comfort to him, and there will be less 'change' to adjust to. School's also strict on good behaviour, which will work for DS as he's been a rule follower all his life (so far!).

3. Barrier free, inclusive school. It is larger than average (1700+ in secondary alone). Also, a boy and a girl from his friendship group will attend here.
   School sounds good on paper with many opportunities for SEN children although DS will be 'lost' here, IMO. Bullying is also rife.

I'm really torn and confused. DS's current SENCO visited the small, private school and was massively impressed. She also likes the larger, barrier free school but agrees it is intimidating due to its size.
The private school would've been my first choice, however I've now seen what friendships mean to DS. It is also far from easy for him to make new friends. His interests are much, much younger than that of his peers. So I'm thinking the faith school maybe?

I'm very confused - help please.

In a perfect world, I'ld say the faith school (assuming EHCP would mean TA support there as well). But if you can afford it, the private school sounds like a smaller, kinder environment for your DS. It's difficult because it's so hard to predict whether primary school friendships will carry through to secondary

I wouldn't touch the barrier free school with a barge pole. Sounds too big, and well intentioned but ineffectual (if bullying is so rife)

My Ds has ASD but no learning disabilities. He has just finished year 11 at an all boys secondary and it's been an awful experience for him. The school has an outstanding Ofsted and has a good reputation locally.

Lots of bullying and it has not suited him at all. It was a very overwhelming, competitive and truly unpleasant environment for a vulnerable young man recently diagnosed with autism. He does not have an EHCP though and had very little support. He was completely 'lost'.

In hindsight it was the wrong choice for him and I would definitely not pick a 'boys only' school again. They can be tough places for a child that is emotionally immature and maybe a target for bullying.

But that is only our experiences. Personally I would be looking for the most 'inclusive' school you can find. The teenage years can be really tough and having a child with additional needs means it can be extra difficult. A good supportive secondary school could make a big difference.

@soccerbabe

In a perfect world, I'ld say the faith school (assuming EHCP would mean TA support there as well). But if you can afford it, the private school sounds like a smaller, kinder environment for your DS. It's difficult because it's so hard to predict whether primary school friendships will carry through to secondary

I wouldn't touch the barrier free school with a barge pole. Sounds too big, and well intentioned but ineffectual (if bullying is so rife)

Thank you for replying, and also for ruling out the barrier free school. All the inclusive chat aside, they don't appear to provide a TA to SEN children in a normal-sized classroom (which is what DS has had in primary, and which I feel is what inclusivity should look like, in my opinion). Instead they put SEN children in separate groups and classrooms, which will work for some children but I can't see it working for DS. The faith school will be providing some one to one support to an autistic pupil starting there this year. And the private school does this too. Also, the private school fees will be covered by the EHCP. It's just a massive change on all fronts - new city, new house, new school, new everything.

I think the first one would be too big a change, with the move etc.. And the last one - no way! So that leaves the faith school.

As a teacher, I’d say 100% go for the private school. Friendships often change dramatically in Year 7, and if his interests are much younger than those of his peers he is going to get left behind very quickly when his friendship group mature. This is a period of disruption, but then potentially seven years of support.

We’ve (village primary with a good local offer/SENCO so attract lots of SEN) seen several parents battle to get partial fee coverage for independent secondaries for their children with additional needs. The only one in recent years to succeed is flourishing in the small class sizes and individual support. Others with ASD, global delay etc have either got lost in the local secondary or frustrated in the only specialist school in the area, which tends to deal with more complex cases.

Also, be aware that what a state school can offer is dictated entirely by government funding. So what support they can provide now may not be in place in a few years time when budgets are cut again.

Small private school so he gets proper support, he will make new friends

Are you sure the private school fees would be covered by his plan? If the school is mainstream independent, ordinarily such schools charge their usual fees and then add on every single additional bit of support, as they have no notional SEN budget to start with or access to Local Authority health and outreach provision.

School 2 sounds a bit like an academy. They are likely to have very high academic standards and if your DS has LDs he may struggle in a setting where attainment is high and expected to be.
School 3 is the most likely to have lots of inclusivity and SEN provision. Increasing numbers of schools unfortunately take children into hubs or whatever they call them for SEN teaching, which I do not like, but as a part of provision management it makes a very tight budget stretch a bit further.
Not a terribly positive take on any I'm afraid but as I don't know them,these are just the bits that jump out from your summaries.

@Punxsutawney

My Ds has ASD but no learning disabilities. He has just finished year 11 at an all boys secondary and it's been an awful experience for him. The school has an outstanding Ofsted and has a good reputation locally.

Lots of bullying and it has not suited him at all. It was a very overwhelming, competitive and truly unpleasant environment for a vulnerable young man recently diagnosed with autism. He does not have an EHCP though and had very little support. He was completely 'lost'.

In hindsight it was the wrong choice for him and I would definitely not pick a 'boys only' school again. They can be tough places for a child that is emotionally immature and maybe a target for bullying.

But that is only our experiences. Personally I would be looking for the most 'inclusive' school you can find. The teenage years can be really tough and having a child with additional needs means it can be extra difficult. A good supportive secondary school could make a big difference.

Thank you for sharing this. I am worried sick about his teenage years and the impact his SEN needs will have, and really do want to get it right.

Our choices are very limited, given his needs. Also, I do not wish for him to go to a special school or a specialist provision within a Mainstream school. So we are down to the 3 I mentioned.

Sorry if this comes across as naive and ignorant - I can understand a boys only school can be quite competitive and sporty (which DS is not), but how is that different from your average, co-ed school which too can be unpleasant and overwhelming for an autistic person? Again, apologies if I'm missing the point here.

@Commentutappelles

Are you sure the private school fees would be covered by his plan? If the school is mainstream independent, ordinarily such schools charge their usual fees and then add on every single additional bit of support, as they have no notional SEN budget to start with or access to Local Authority health and outreach provision. School 2 sounds a bit like an academy. They are likely to have very high academic standards and if your DS has LDs he may struggle in a setting where attainment is high and expected to be. School 3 is the most likely to have lots of inclusivity and SEN provision. Increasing numbers of schools unfortunately take children into hubs or whatever they call them for SEN teaching, which I do not like, but as a part of provision management it makes a very tight budget stretch a bit further. Not a terribly positive take on any I'm afraid but as I don't know them,these are just the bits that jump out from your summaries.

They do. The annual fees is a bit shy of 7K, and DS gets that roughly in the form of 25 hours per week. I've checked this with the private school, and they've confirmed that EHCP has covered the fees of the other SEN children in the school. School 2 is a 'Leadership' academy, and you're right about the expectations that come with it. I have yet to speak to the SENCO and find out how this would translate to SEN children.

Small private school 100%.

Sadly there is a high chance that those existing friendships will not continue as he moves to secondary school. Whilst familiar faces are comforting in the first few days, friendships change massively at that age. Think of the long term benefit rather than the comfort of the short term.

Annual fees are 7k and ds gets 25 hours per week
I'm really not trying to be the arse on a thread who is attempting to prove you wrong, so apologies if I appear to be. However if he were going to a mainstream school, the Local Authority would be topping up the school's provision by maybe £5k to accommodate his 25 hour plan, on top of their notional £6k. Essentially the school would be giving all his SEN support for free (25 hours of 1-1 support, plus any additional provision). There is no responsibility for the LA to pay any money for SEN in an independent school and you may be looking at a tribunal to force them to.

@thunderthighsohwoe

As a teacher, I’d say 100% go for the private school. Friendships often change dramatically in Year 7, and if his interests are much younger than those of his peers he is going to get left behind very quickly when his friendship group mature. This is a period of disruption, but then potentially seven years of support.

We’ve (village primary with a good local offer/SENCO so attract lots of SEN) seen several parents battle to get partial fee coverage for independent secondaries for their children with additional needs. The only one in recent years to succeed is flourishing in the small class sizes and individual support. Others with ASD, global delay etc have either got lost in the local secondary or frustrated in the only specialist school in the area, which tends to deal with more complex cases.

Thank you for your input.

His interests are definitely much younger than his peers - he often watches cartoons aimed at younger children which he loves. At the same time, he will also watch more-age appropriate movies and superhero stuff that they all seem to love. Lately his friends have gotten him into playing age appropriate Roblox games, and he has caught on (watching yt videos of other people playing has helped). I guess I am really banking on him picking up what his friends are doing, and then taking it further. He has done this in the recent years, which gives me hope I guess.

Small class sizes and individual support is a no-brainer, really. I am just very very worried that children in the new school will simply not be interested in him due to his needs and difficulties, as has been the case in the mainstream primary. It has taken a lot to facilitate the friendships he has at the moment (which he really really values), but I don't think my further input in the matter will be appreciated as they get older. Hence, the pull towards what's familiar and known.

@Commentutappelles

Annual fees are 7k and ds gets 25 hours per week I'm really not trying to be the arse on a thread who is attempting to prove you wrong, so apologies if I appear to be. However if he were going to a mainstream school, the Local Authority would be topping up the school's provision by maybe £5k to accommodate his 25 hour plan, on top of their notional £6k. Essentially the school would be giving all his SEN support for free (25 hours of 1-1 support, plus any additional provision). There is no responsibility for the LA to pay any money for SEN in an independent school and you may be looking at a tribunal to force them to.

Not being an arse at all. Admittedly, I've only gone of what the headteacher at the private school has told me. If the independent school is deemed suitable for DS, then the EHCP and all that it provides simply carries over. It did come as a surprise to me. Will look into this more. Also, if they don't pay, we will do it.

Chicken like I say it is only our experiences but our oldest went to a co-ed school and the differences were huge.

Ds's school was just so laddish, boys will be boys, so much of the behaviour ignored. Lots of physical violence. Ds was bullied because of his autism, called a 'cripple' because he used a laptop. Had his possessions damaged and stolen, laughed at and mocked.

It was a really tough environment and Ds thinks that many of the boys would not have acted the way they did in a co-ed environment. They could see his vulnerabilities and made his life miserable. He had no friends at all and was not able to even access basic needs like using the toilets for the five years he was there.

What I have learnt is to take Ofsted inspections and other parents comments or hearsay about schools with a pinch of salt. Ds's school is well respected locally but his experiences have been terribly poor. It has left him with long term mental health difficulties.

So for me it would have to be a school that is inclusive and has great SEN support with a proven track record.

It must be a difficult choice for you so good luck in finding the right placement.

@Punxsutawney

Chicken like I say it is only our experiences but our oldest went to a co-ed school and the differences were huge.

Ds's school was just so laddish, boys will be boys, so much of the behaviour ignored. Lots of physical violence. Ds was bullied because of his autism, called a 'cripple' because he used a laptop. Had his possessions damaged and stolen, laughed at and mocked.

It was a really tough environment and Ds thinks that many of the boys would not have acted the way they did in a co-ed environment. They could see his vulnerabilities and made his life miserable. He had no friends at all and was not able to even access basic needs like using the toilets for the five years he was there.

What I have learnt is to take Ofsted inspections and other parents comments or hearsay about schools with a pinch of salt. Ds's school is well respected locally but his experiences have been terribly poor. It has left him with long term mental health difficulties.

So for me it would have to be a school that is inclusive and has great SEN support with a proven track record.

It must be a difficult choice for you so good luck in finding the right placement.

Thank you for sharing this with me. Can't begin to imagine what your DS has been through. The all boys faith school seems to really push good behaviour, but I will be looking more into that myself. Thanks again.

It’s a tough decision but it does sound like you have 3 good viable options, so that’s a good place to start 😊.

I think personally for me the friendship situation may trump the other variables.... you could request your DS is in a Tutor group with those he is friends with.

I work in a school with 1700 students and those with SEN tend to manage brilliantly. But I guess it depends on the sxhool. You could ask what the provision would be at lunchtime for example. Our learning support centre runs a lunchtime club everyday where the children can go to feel safe, they have a movie once a week, board games etc. They can eat their lunch there as well if they wish.

You could try the faith school and larger comp and if they don’t work for your son move to the private smaller school?

If DS' EHCP states full time 1:1 in class that is what he should get, regardless of what the school normally provides. If he doesn't, as long as section F is specific and quantified, you can go to judicial review.

If the independent MS is named in the EHCP the LA are responsible for paying the fees and any additional SEN provision.

If they believe another school can meet his needs they will try to name that, you could appeal. If you chose to pay for the private schooling yourself the LA are likely to say you are making suitable arrangements to educate DS and then they have no further duty to provide anything. Some LAs are willing to agree to parents paying the fees and them paying for the additional SEN support, but that isn't as common.

If moving closer to the private school involves moving LA the new LA will reassess his EHCP.

Private school 100%, if it's affordable. Check their bullying policy and actions; do they actually address it as part of the school culture? All schools are at risk of bullying but the successful ones nip it in the bud.

You mention a house move; is there no way DS can keep his primary friendships through shared hobbies?

@OverTheRainbow88

It’s a tough decision but it does sound like you have 3 good viable options, so that’s a good place to start 😊.

I think personally for me the friendship situation may trump the other variables.... you could request your DS is in a Tutor group with those he is friends with.

I work in a school with 1700 students and those with SEN tend to manage brilliantly. But I guess it depends on the sxhool. You could ask what the provision would be at lunchtime for example. Our learning support centre runs a lunchtime club everyday where the children can go to feel safe, they have a movie once a week, board games etc. They can eat their lunch there as well if they wish.

You could try the faith school and larger comp and if they don’t work for your son move to the private smaller school?

I have massive reservations about the larger school, although DS' present SENCO thinks it's great. There seems to be very little mixing/integration other than at lunchtime. SEN children remain in SEN groups for everything, and there is a more specialist, separate unit for those who have more complex needs. I doubt this approach will be suitable for DS. I will be asking them more specific questions when I'm able to visit in September.

@10brokengreenbottles

If DS' EHCP states full time 1:1 in class that is what he should get, regardless of what the school normally provides. If he doesn't, as long as section F is specific and quantified, you can go to judicial review.

If the independent MS is named in the EHCP the LA are responsible for paying the fees and any additional SEN provision.

If they believe another school can meet his needs they will try to name that, you could appeal. If you chose to pay for the private schooling yourself the LA are likely to say you are making suitable arrangements to educate DS and then they have no further duty to provide anything. Some LAs are willing to agree to parents paying the fees and them paying for the additional SEN support, but that isn't as common.

If moving closer to the private school involves moving LA the new LA will reassess his EHCP.

Thank you so much for clearing this up.

@TheABC

Private school 100%, if it's affordable. Check their bullying policy and actions; do they actually address it as part of the school culture? All schools are at risk of bullying but the successful ones nip it in the bud.

You mention a house move; is there no way DS can keep his primary friendships through shared hobbies?

I ferry both boys to and from Taekwondo once a week. However moving to a different town altogether means this is unlikely to carry on. Personally I think, the friendship will fizzle out with the move, which will devastate DS.

Does the larger school have an enhanced/additionally resourced provision/unit? Is that what the mainly separate provision is?

@10brokengreenbottles

Does the larger school have an enhanced/additionally resourced provision/unit? Is that what the mainly separate provision is?

Yes, 12 places for very complex SEN needs. Everyone else with SEN in smaller groups in separate classrooms.

Yes defo worth a visit. That’s unusual that they are taught together for all lessons. So our students, even those with the biggest needs, are in mixed ability classes for all subjects bar math and English, then go to learning support for extra 1-1 lessons/support maybe 2 times a week , and then have the learning support base at lunchtime if this is what they want to go.