Confused about mainstream school choices for special needs DS

[chickenlittlee]

Hello all.

I am at my wits' end trying to zero in on a secondary school for DS who has ASD, Speech and Language Delay, LD, so your thoughts will be greatly appreciated.

He attends a mainstream primary (with an EHCP and a TA) and has managed as he's a stringent rule-follower, so we've never had a complaint with his behaviour in school.

For years, he played 'alongside' children rather than with them (mainly due to delayed language - he first spoke in a proper sentence at the end of year 3). So on his birthday in year 4, I threw a big party inviting his entire class in an attempt to break the ice and get something going in the way of friendships. It worked, and he became friends with two other children. The children got invited to days out etc, and the friendship blossomed, and with that his confidence and self-worth. DS has been badly bullied in school, and these friends have stood up for him. He will be starting year 6 in September and now has a group of 4 friends he plays with. I am no longer as involved in keeping the friendship going as before, although there are times when I have to explain what DS meant/didn't mean as he struggles to articulate himself due to limited speech & vocabulary.

The school choices:

1. Very small, private school in Bolton (We are in Manchester) - 10 out of 45 students in school have SEN.
   Students love it there, small class sizes, mixed ability.
   DS knows no one though and we will also have to move closer, as commuting is not an option for him.
   It is going to be a massive change for him on all fronts. The school has a prep school too, so not many new students start at the same time in year 7.

2. Boys only faith school (we are of the same faith but not religious at all), which is where majority of boys from his school will attend.
   It's a new-ish school (3 years) so no ofsted yet, and they only got a proper SENCO last year.
   Obviously there is a big emphasis on religion which DS doesn't really understand. However, DS does want to attend here because his closest friends (2 out of 4) will be. Whilst there is no guarantee these friendships are going last, I am hoping familiar faces will be of comfort to him, and there will be less 'change' to adjust to. School's also strict on good behaviour, which will work for DS as he's been a rule follower all his life (so far!).

3. Barrier free, inclusive school. It is larger than average (1700+ in secondary alone). Also, a boy and a girl from his friendship group will attend here.
   School sounds good on paper with many opportunities for SEN children although DS will be 'lost' here, IMO. Bullying is also rife.

I'm really torn and confused. DS's current SENCO visited the small, private school and was massively impressed. She also likes the larger, barrier free school but agrees it is intimidating due to its size.
The private school would've been my first choice, however I've now seen what friendships mean to DS. It is also far from easy for him to make new friends. His interests are much, much younger than that of his peers. So I'm thinking the faith school maybe?

I'm very confused - help please.

@OverTheRainbow88

Yes defo worth a visit. That’s unusual that they are taught together for all lessons. So our students, even those with the biggest needs, are in mixed ability classes for all subjects bar math and English, then go to learning support for extra 1-1 lessons/support maybe 2 times a week , and then have the learning support base at lunchtime if this is what they want to go.

It is, and hardly 'inclusive' IMO. They attended all classes in their respective ability groups, just together for registration in the morning.

I have a DS who sounds similar to yours. Friendships are very important to him. We moved him at a younger age than your DS - twice! - and because friendships are important to him he’s done really well in making new ones. It may be a bit of a red herring.

DS is at a small private specialist school just going into Year 7 after a year in the primary school. He is going into a class with one other child he knows. He is nervous but because he’s made friends before we can talk about how he did it and this gives him confidence.

The relief of being in this small school after mainstream provision which was always good but just not right for DS is overwhelming.

I would go for the small private school. Short term pain for long term gain.

I have a similar chap though he’s 15 now. Our choice was more stark and I jumped the wrong way☹️

I’d go with the small independent. Definitely not the huge one. I’d move and start together new. It WILL be difficult but long term it sounds very promising and he will change so much in the next few years. In our case language disorder (which was very severe) has really improved and asd which was there but not a biggy is now more problematic. I’d never have guessed and now have no idea where we are going!

Some schools have transition or nurture classes for anyone who may need extra help accessing the curriculum or transitioning to secondary. Depending on the set up pupils stay in that class for Y7, for KS3, or until they are ready to transition to mainstream classes. Is this what it is?

Or do you mean they are streamed or setted for everything? In which case those with SEN should be placed according to their ability and needs.

Is there an ASD resource provision within travelling distance?

Just to throw a spanner in the works: his friends may prefer to go to the schools you've identified, but are you sure they will get places? Basically, are you 100% certain the kids will go where you expect? We are a school year ahead of you, with much less complex needs. Many kids are not going to their first choice school.
For us, the massive secondary had the SEND support that nowhere else even touched on. The church school was academics, academics, academics.

If they exist, go to open evenings, and ask awkward questions.

@Anselve

I have a DS who sounds similar to yours. Friendships are very important to him. We moved him at a younger age than your DS - twice! - and because friendships are important to him he’s done really well in making new ones. It may be a bit of a red herring.

DS is at a small private specialist school just going into Year 7 after a year in the primary school. He is going into a class with one other child he knows. He is nervous but because he’s made friends before we can talk about how he did it and this gives him confidence.

The relief of being in this small school after mainstream provision which was always good but just not right for DS is overwhelming.

I would go for the small private school. Short term pain for long term gain.

I do hope it is a red herring. Thank you.

In my experience - upper KS2 teacher, often involved in transition EHCP meetings where secondary provision is discussed - the transition between primary and secondary is a point which children with SEN, who have coped in mainstream primary, find very difficult, and where considering 'non mainstream' provision seriously is important.

In primary, children are consistently in a single classroom, with a single consistent adult, and with a dedicated 1:1 support. Materials for younger years is easily available. The children in the class are used to the child and their needs, and are kind and accommodating to someone they have always known. Puberty, growing up, teenagerhood, and the behavioural changes those bring about are 'in the future'.

Mainstream secondary brings something very different. Subject classes, in different rooms and with different teachers, each of whom may have different expectations and ways of working, and each of whom your child will need to be able to communicate with effectively. No younger children. 1:1s often on a rota from a 'pool'. Classmates who may not be consistent from lesson to lesson and whose own rapid change and development and gradual awareness of what is 'cool' and wish to fit in with the crowd may affect how they behave. Less supervision of e.g. break and lunchtimes, so less oversight of any unkind behaviour going on at that point.

There is also the question of the levels at which your child is working, which you don't mention other than talking about vocabulary and speech. There is a LOT more reading required to access the curriculum at secondary, so a child who does not read well will find all subjects harder.

Of the options that you mention, the small private school may well be the best option BUT you should check very carefully whether it will be funded. It may well be that an EHCP will find the 'additional' costs for your child there - e.g. a TA - but not the 'basic fees'.

However, i would also very actively explore Special Education options available locally. If I put it this way - no parent with a child with SEN who i have taught who has gone to Special School for secondary has every regretted it. Parents of children of normal academic attainment but other SEN (very high functioning ASD, CP, profound deafness etc) have always been very happy with a mainstream choice. Some others who have initially avoided the Special Education route have regretted their choice and found it very hard - even harder than at 11 - to access it later on.

@10brokengreenbottles

Some schools have transition or nurture classes for anyone who may need extra help accessing the curriculum or transitioning to secondary. Depending on the set up pupils stay in that class for Y7, for KS3, or until they are ready to transition to mainstream classes. Is this what it is?

Or do you mean they are streamed or setted for everything? In which case those with SEN should be placed according to their ability and needs.

Is there an ASD resource provision within travelling distance?

Have PMed you. Hope that's okay.

Some others who have initially avoided the Special Education route have regretted their choice we opted for special school and it was a disaster. It is far easier to go from MS to SS than the reverse.

@cantkeepawayforever

In my experience - upper KS2 teacher, often involved in transition EHCP meetings where secondary provision is discussed - the transition between primary and secondary is a point which children with SEN, who have coped in mainstream primary, find very difficult, and where considering 'non mainstream' provision seriously is important.

In primary, children are consistently in a single classroom, with a single consistent adult, and with a dedicated 1:1 support. Materials for younger years is easily available. The children in the class are used to the child and their needs, and are kind and accommodating to someone they have always known. Puberty, growing up, teenagerhood, and the behavioural changes those bring about are 'in the future'.

Mainstream secondary brings something very different. Subject classes, in different rooms and with different teachers, each of whom may have different expectations and ways of working, and each of whom your child will need to be able to communicate with effectively. No younger children. 1:1s often on a rota from a 'pool'. Classmates who may not be consistent from lesson to lesson and whose own rapid change and development and gradual awareness of what is 'cool' and wish to fit in with the crowd may affect how they behave. Less supervision of e.g. break and lunchtimes, so less oversight of any unkind behaviour going on at that point.

There is also the question of the levels at which your child is working, which you don't mention other than talking about vocabulary and speech. There is a LOT more reading required to access the curriculum at secondary, so a child who does not read well will find all subjects harder.

Of the options that you mention, the small private school may well be the best option BUT you should check very carefully whether it will be funded. It may well be that an EHCP will find the 'additional' costs for your child there - e.g. a TA - but not the 'basic fees'.

However, i would also very actively explore Special Education options available locally. If I put it this way - no parent with a child with SEN who i have taught who has gone to Special School for secondary has every regretted it. Parents of children of normal academic attainment but other SEN (very high functioning ASD, CP, profound deafness etc) have always been very happy with a mainstream choice. Some others who have initially avoided the Special Education route have regretted their choice and found it very hard - even harder than at 11 - to access it later on.

Great to hear your well-informed perspective. Thank you.

The SENCO and his teachers agree that a purely specialist provision would be unsuitable for DS based solely on how well he copes with the requirements of a mainstream primary (noise levels, last minute changes etc.). But secondary is wildly different of course. Which is where the private school comes into picture, with smaller classrooms (6 children) set in a small building. Children remain in their respective classrooms, the teachers move around.

We all are in agreement that DS needs help to access curriculum, to simplify it (At the start of Y5, he was working at Y3). For example, whilst DS can read books read by his peers, he doesn't necessarily understand what he has read. So he gets given Y3 reading books.

It is far easier to go from MS to SS than the reverse.

This isn't always the case, especially where there are more pupils needing/wanting SS places than there is space.

Being full alone isn't a good enough reason to refuse admission with an EHCP, but there comes a point where the LA can prove they are so full it's incompatible with the efficient education of the pupil or others, or it's incompatible with the efficient use of resources.

OP, do you have it in writing that SS is unsuitable? And that he needs small class sizes? Both these will help if you try to get the LA to name the indie MS.

@RedCatBlueCat

Just to throw a spanner in the works: his friends may prefer to go to the schools you've identified, but are you sure they will get places? Basically, are you 100% certain the kids will go where you expect? We are a school year ahead of you, with much less complex needs. Many kids are not going to their first choice school. For us, the massive secondary had the SEND support that nowhere else even touched on. The church school was academics, academics, academics.

If they exist, go to open evenings, and ask awkward questions.

True, it could all go horribly wrong.

SENCO tells me it isn't hard to get into the faith school, what with it being pretty niche and all. In comparison, the barrier free school is harder to get into.

Will be going to open evenings, and have emailed the awkward questions already.

Just to add something else about my complicated family. DD1 has ASD and we didn’t know at primary school because she was so successful at masking it. She says she didn’t know either.
Puberty and mainstream secondary were horrendous. It wasn’t the social side of school she found difficult but the logistics - much busier, more teachers to deal with, higher expectations, the sensory overload of a large building with so much noise and moving from classroom to classroom. She is now at home doing online school and is back to our happier child.
The more you describe the setting of the small private school, the more I think it would suit your DS. But you know him best. Through all the ups and downs of schooling my three, we’ve had to ride each situation as it’s occurred, thinking all the time, what’s the choice which will make them happier and blow the rest of it. I think it’s hard for you at the moment to make a choice because your DS is happy now.

The smaller school sounds lovely for some children but with your DS having to move, lose his friends and then trying to fit himself in to established friendship groups I think that will be hard. Friendships in small schools are tricky. My daughter, who has ASD, was at a small private school, I took her out after she became suicidal because the problem with small classes is when she fell out with one child all the other children started bullying her too, so she had no friends at all and literally her entire class were being horrible to her, moved to a bigger mainstream school and whilst there are still children she doesn't get on with she has some friends.

The faith school sounds your best bet to me but it sounds as if your SENCO isn't keen and they would know your local schools better than I do so I'd take their opinion into account.

The big school sounds like it could be a good option once you have asked a few more questions, from what you've written it sounds very similar to a school I worked in, which i can see why you have reservations but i think a lot of that might be the way its been explained, so I would definitely go have a look at that one and ask lots of questions.

Sorry just another thing. Your situation chimes so much with me and often when your child isn’t achieving in the same way as everyone else it’s hard to gauge it.

DS2 is dyslexic so is going into year 7 at year 3 read/writing and year 4 maths. It is so much easier for him in a specialist setting to be taught at his level and for him to feel confident that he is achieving and therefore progress more quickly. Have you looked at specialist schools around you?

It is far easier to go from MS to SS than the reverse.

Locally, for the reasons given by a PP, this is very much not the case locally. The SS for MLD is hundreds of percent oversubscribed - it could fill its places 3 or 4 times over by children with EHCPs naming the school as the best destination, and it is, in particular, extremely difficult to get a place at 'non-standard' entry points. The start of Y7 is very slightly easier, as the PAN increases from the primary end of the school, and all applicants' needs for entry are weighed against each other, whereas at a non-standard point, however high the applying child's needs, all those already there take priority.

On the other hand, a child moving from a SS to mainstream, at a non-standard point but with an EHCP naming the school, has a much greater chance of being admitted.

@YayGlitter

The smaller school sounds lovely for some children but with your DS having to move, lose his friends and then trying to fit himself in to established friendship groups I think that will be hard. Friendships in small schools are tricky. My daughter, who has ASD, was at a small private school, I took her out after she became suicidal because the problem with small classes is when she fell out with one child all the other children started bullying her too, so she had no friends at all and literally her entire class were being horrible to her, moved to a bigger mainstream school and whilst there are still children she doesn't get on with she has some friends.

The faith school sounds your best bet to me but it sounds as if your SENCO isn't keen and they would know your local schools better than I do so I'd take their opinion into account.

The big school sounds like it could be a good option once you have asked a few more questions, from what you've written it sounds very similar to a school I worked in, which i can see why you have reservations but i think a lot of that might be the way its been explained, so I would definitely go have a look at that one and ask lots of questions.

Thanks for sharing this - the small school friendship situation sounds horrendous! At least at this moment in time, I am struggling to see how he would just slide into established friendship groups. His speech will make him stand out the most if not anything else as his sentences are incorrectly formed, his stammer is prominent, and not many children have the patience for that in his current school, aside from his friends.

DS is an only child, and we have no family in this country. Just DH, DS and I. So loneliness is real for DS, therefore I am petrified of moving away from the current friendships which haven't come easy.

I would caution against an child - whatever their abilities and needs - choosing a secondary school for friendship reasons.

The transfer to secondary opens up a so much wider 'pool' of possible friendships (as well as, obviously, lots of reasons why particular children may not spend time together, due to being in different classes, sets, streams, houses or option blocks) that many children's primary-based friendship groups change utterly in early secondary.

I would very seriously caution against assuming that your DS's current friends will remain in exactly the same relationship with him in Y7.

@cantkeepawayforever
On the other hand, a child moving from a SS to mainstream, at a non-standard point but with an EHCP naming the school, has a much greater chance of being admitted.
That’s interesting. How many children do you have coming back into MS from you SS?

I feel awful saying this but unless his friends are exceptionally confident and willing to defend your son /accept the abuse that comes by association then I think the small private is the better choice. I am involved in schools and starting year 7 is hard. Most kids want to become invisible/one of the crowd and sadly that will not be possible.
7k fees is very low for senior school tho, I would we worried about the school finances, lots of small private schools have closed recently.

@Anselve

Sorry just another thing. Your situation chimes so much with me and often when your child isn’t achieving in the same way as everyone else it’s hard to gauge it.

DS2 is dyslexic so is going into year 7 at year 3 read/writing and year 4 maths. It is so much easier for him in a specialist setting to be taught at his level and for him to feel confident that he is achieving and therefore progress more quickly. Have you looked at specialist schools around you?

Haven't looked at specialist schools. All professionals involved in DS's care including CAMHS is of the opinion that a SS is unsuitable for him. What he needs is a small, mainstream school with a good SENCO/established SEN provision.

SEN aside, I'd be worried about a school with classes of 6. DD2 has ASD - she has reasonable academic ability, but the ASD tends to affect her confidence, etc., and she obviously has a very literal take on the world.

In primary school, DD1 had 6 girls in her year, although she was in a class of 23 - mixed years/mixed sex. She had no friends at all. It was horribly lonely and she spent every break reading. Staff were told not to try and make her 'join in' with the other kids because it was clearly not going to do anything and she was ok with reading.

Now she goes to a 1300 pupil secondary school. I was terrified for her, but she's got a nice, tight knit group of friends. The process was quite organic - she met one girl on the bus, another as she walked around the side of a school building, etc.

ItIsBetter,

I work in a primary, so the usual direction of movement is from mainstream to SS, but we do have some coming back the other way - most frequently from EBD SS, to be fair.

IME go with the school that least sells itself to you!

So the one who answers your questions of "what do you do for children who need support with this ...." with "we have a safe space room for lunch and break. We use it x way etc etc"

I had similar experience to punx with my ds first secondary school. Academy, 650 on roll and apparent specialists in ASD.
In reality they could spout teams if theory but had no idea what their pupils with asd personally needed. They even referred to my ds as an asd pupil. That literally how they saw him!

He went to a very good 1800 pupil MS secondary from year 8. They provided him what he needed and reviewed and adapted as required.

La can and will provide fees for private but it's very unusual to get annal who will do this without a fight. But 7k fees is much lower than average private where I live so maybe it is worth it for them and costs no more than funding a MS with ta support package.

I honestly think it's a very bad idea to base your sons secondary schooling on the existing friendships of two children. That's also a lot of unknown pressure you are putting on those kids.

You need to choose the right school for your son without the expectation of those friendships continuing just in case.

Taking friendships out of the equation, which school would you choose. That will be the right one.