Indie vs “super state”

[Paribus]

Wr are very fortunate in that our DD got 4 offers from indies (FHSS, Queen’s Gate, Queen’s college and G&L) and were trying to pick up the best for her- however today she (out of the blue!!) got an offer from Grey Coat Hospital School as well.
We are truly baffled and don’t know where to start. Our kids have always been privately educated, we are expats so don’t onow an awful lot about state schools here.
What would you do? Independent? “Super state”?? Is GCHS really that great?? Please, please help!! Any advice will be so gratefully received!

Yep like @hairquestions2019 said - often much more languages (in our case the indy option does French, German, Spanish, Russian Latin & Greek and all pupils take at least one language to GCSE vs the State just French & German and only about a third of pupils take a language at GCSE at all) - plus another 4 subjects in their GCSE list which aren't available at the state school. At A level it's a choice of 28 subjects (indy) vs 20 (state). Obviously it's more economically viable for indies to offer a wider variety because the minimum class size they can timetable for is smaller, so it is possible to offer niche options. State schools can't easily timetable a subject that doesn't have high uptake so they have to be more restricted.

@Paribus State schools also spend on salaries, rent, taxes, water/electricity, etc - of course they do! That's going to be the major expenditure for any school state or private, along with books and other resources. The amount per pupil for state schools is equally their entire income divided by their number of pupils. If a school has more income in the budget to put more into salaries and attract a greater quality and experience level of staff as a result then that benefits the pupils, obviously.

I think many States offer French and Spanish rather than German but not a huge point! I’ll admit to bias but do think we should move away from generalisations about the State sector offering a rather bog standard (and therefore limiting) curriculum. Many do have specialisms - purely as an example, for a creative minded DD, my youngest’ school offers far broader options in its curriculum subjects than the local Indie. But this is all moving off topic!

@hairquestions2019
DD1 has ADD, anxiety and major self doubt issues, she has "weird behaviours" - her words as coping methods which can put others off and caused a lot of bullying in primary.
She has always struggled to make friends of her peer group, older and younger not so much.
She has a group of 3-4 friends in her class, she is friendly with most of the rest of the class and 1-2 she positively avoids - but I think you can get that in any class.
She knows others in other classes and across the years as she used to be a girl chorister at Southwark Cathedral and about half of the older choristers go to GCH.
GCH knows that a lot of girls attending will not have any one else coming from their school, so those that do - there are 3 from DD2's class are likely to be in different forms - they do a lot in those first weeks to encourage them to get to know each other.
They also do a travel club you can sign up for - they try and get a few yr 7's travelling in from the same area together with a yr8/9 to meet and do the journey together a few times over the summer and at the start of term as some will be travelling quite a way on their own for the first time.
There is some dividing by home location. In her first year there was one girl that was switched to a different form as she seemed to ruffle everyone's feathers and didn't make friends with anyone else in the class.
There were also about 4-5 girls that left/arrived into class all the way up until Half term - results of wait list shuffles I believe.
They don't get an ability split until year 8 and then they will have girls from other forms in their classes. - they also don't really tell them which group they are in, the girls can roughly work it out but they are not labelled group 1, 2, 3 etc.
GCH requires every girl to take one language to GCSE as they are a language college. All learn spanish then french or german.
DD1 is struggling abit at the moment and we haven't pinned down the cause of the "i hate school" statement.

DD2 classes herself as weird - when sister was tested for ADD etc, The doc decided she was just eccentric!
She worries alot about making friends, and she doesn't start friendships but she is one of those that everyone else gravitates towards as she makes everyone feel comfortable and supported around her (IFKWIM?)
She likes her own space and isn't worried about what others think of her, she doesn't see limitations in the same way as others, she is just getting a little concious of her body shape - but she is young and tall for age with the add of puberty hoping a season of American football could change her perceptions of herself. When she realises that you don't have to be stick thin or very fast to succeed in a sport.
She does see some things in a very black / white way at times. and gets herself told off for getting annoyed if people are not exact.
I would say bordering on aspergers with a few things but not all.

I think DD2 would be more confidant having less in her year, she would put her head down and work at GCH but not sure she would cope so well with the numbers.

AlissKezamMoivit

If fees were, say, 50% higher than the running costs of a state school, I would agree with you. But with average independent school fees at three times the running costs of a state school, you start to get suspicious.

@AlissKezamMoivit, of course state schools spend on salaries etc- i was just trying to say that dividing the income by number of students is not going to give a clear picture of how much is spent per student per se, just as not- for- profit status does not quite indicate that the school is running with 0 profit- it is acquired mainly to avoid business rates.
Re modern languages- not an issue with GC as far as i understand but thanks for pointing out re A- levels! I did not know that! What are the subjects offered by your indie that are not given in the state if i may ask?

@tiggermummy70, thank you so much for the post! So sorry that your daughter is not happy at school now, this is so tough for a child and a parent! Hope it gets sorted asap! May i also ask you re science- on the website it says that majority does double, but it is possible to do triple? Our DD needs to do triple if she wants to get the career that she’s been dreaming of for the last 5+ years, but is it at all possible at GC? Is there a science lab at all?

Again, thank you so much ladies 🌺🌺🌺!!

I think you have swallowed a tabloid-newspaper's account of school charitable status. Most independent schools were established as charities long before such things as business rates existed, with the charitable purpose of creating a suitable education at cost-price for those poor children whose parents couldn't afford a permanent live-in private tutor. This was also long before state schools generally existed (and yes there were whole strata of other children who were lucky if they were taught to read - it is good that society has moved on). If a school has charitable status it most certainly is run as not-for-profit - there are no owners or shareholders to receive dividends, there is nowhere for any surplus to go except being spent within the school's activities for the benefit of the pupils directly or indirectly. They are regulated by the charities commission and have to submit their accounts annually - any attempt to divert money away from the charitable purpose of the school would be embezzlement, and a criminal offence. Income over number of pupils may be a quite blunt instrument but it is no less or more valid for one kind of school than another - you can't accept it as a measure for state schools and not for independents. How would you differentiate between money that is "spent per student" and money that isn't? What does any school spend money on that isn't really being spent on the school?

Subjects offered at A level by the indy we are looking at, which aren't offered at A level by the excellent state alternative, are Classical Civilisation, Computing, Creative Writing, Dance, Design & Technology as well as the 4 other languages mentioned above.

@alisskezammoivit, my kids have been in private school for 7 years now and without outing myself i just know how it is run, so, no, i haven’t read any tabloid’s article about it, i just know. Let’s just stop here, shall we? It really is not adding much to the discussion i’m afraid.

Re A levels- i see, thanks 🌺!

@paribus From my DD1 there are some that do triple science.

Thank you @tiggermummy70!! Do you happen to know if there is a science lab there? Thanks!!

@paribus

In lower school they have 3 science labs.
But some of yr 9 classes are in Andrew building from yr 10 all classes & sixth form based in upper building. Separate labs there.

Oh wow. Thank you! That’s really good. Are they like proper labs, with gas equipment, glass thingy for explosions etc? Sorry for asking truly stupid questions, should have really done that at the open day!!

Thanks Tiggermummy that is interesting - and I hope things improve for your dd1 soon.

Paribus if your dd's very keen to do triple science it might be worth asking the schools what the criteria for doing it are - some allow any student who wants to to do it, others have a limited number of places. Though things can change at any school by the time you get to Yr 10 which is a problem you can't really get round!

Also, triple science may not be essential for the career - there are sometimes mn threads when science teachers say it's harder but not impossible to do stem A levels after double science. (Though I don't know if any universities require triple GCSE - not an expert in that area!)

@hairquestions2019, thanks, will ask the school, although loads can change obv!

Solasun, I am surprised at your observation. Have you never come across the groups of GCH girls and the boys from the boys equivalent hanging out boisterously in the Victoria Station shopping centre. Or the entitled way they crowd the exits on the 507 bus from Waterloo.(Loads seem to come up from far flung bits of SE London and Kent.) More than once I have had to tell girls to offer seats to the elderly and disabled. It's as if they have no idea.

And why are they always eating on public transport? Greasy chicken and stuff.

It may sound weird, but I would judge a school by the behaviour of its pupils outside school, and I am not impressed by GCH.

@needmoresleep, you should see the behaviour of students from More college in Chelsea. Last time i saw them they were throwing a ball to each other while standing on the opposite sides of Sloane street 🙈🙈. Hope it is not that bad with GCH!

For a moment I thought you were referring to More House, the rather posh RC private girls school.

For years we used a bus which was full of kids commuting to Harris Battersea and they were lovely. A bit rowdy at times but no more than you might expect. Not so for the GCH girls who seem to have no idea of how they should behave whilst in school uniform.

More seriously though I understand that the school can be very different depending on which set you are in. Lower sets can have discipline problems. Fine if you get in through the language test, but more tricky if you enter through other criteria.

The school also has problems recruiting and retaining teachers, and this can be a real issue at sixth form. There is a steady drift of middle class kids out of the school into the private sector. In particular I hear that several this year dont plan to stay on for sixth form.

Honestly, if you can afford it with too big a stretch I would go for G&L. Lovely school with both a nurturing and academic reputation, and the option of IB in sixth form, ideal for those may be applying for non UK Universities.

No, more house has other issues sadly 🙈. Thanks for the head up on GCH’s 6th form, very helpful! Are you a parent at the school @needmoresleep?

And it is only 15 places for the language test, surely top sets can’t be just 15 people?

No, just live nearby.

Obviously the top set is more than just the language places, and indeed the language test seems more of a logic test than a linguistics test, but I have known people who have been disappointed to discover that there is quite a range of ability in some of the other sets. A wider range than you would find in somewhere where the whole intake is selective like G&L.

I wonder also whether GCH sixth form is being impacted by the well regarded and nearby Harris Westminster and Kings Maths School Sixth Forms. I think now these would be preferred by local parents, especially those whose DC (GCH is mixed at sixth form) are considering Oxbridge or similar and especially maths/sciences.

We know people who have been very happy with More House as a less academic/more nurturing alternative to the standard academic arms race that can exist in central London's independent sector.

Often people seem to judge schools by results without fully factoring in how selective the intake is. School should be judged in part by what they do for each pupil.

Well, absolutely! That's why i’m astonished by GCH A level results as they seem to be almost on par with FHSS for example.

We did not like G&L at all so declined straight away. It might be academic but from what i know it is def not nurturing.

We also beliwve that having a wide range of abilities is better for a growing individual than having a uniform cohort of kids at super selectives. The only thing that matters in the end of the day is leavers destinations- and to my utter suprise they seem to be better at GCH than at G&L.

Really?

Unless they suddenly had a bumper year, I would have thought G&L was far outstripping GCH in things like Oxbridge places. (Despite losing some to co-Ed’s at sixth form, and despite also sending a good crop to the US.) A level results won’t tell the whole story as some of the more able will be taking IB. But then school stats can always be quite hard to interpret.

Having googled the school, numerous MPs seem to send their DC to GCH and not just left leaning ones - surely that suggests a pretty consistent results pattern? Doubt politicians like Gove would go down this route otherwise.

On sixth form, GCH has the real advantage of being part of the Westminster Consortium which allows pupils to take subjects not offered by their school at neighbouring schools.

Well, it seems that loads girls from GCH went for stem degrees/science/neuroscience/engineering rather than art degrees at G&L (nothing wrong with art though!!) but the difference was rather striking to me...