What do you do if you don't want the school you've been offered ?

[fogginghell]

My head is in a spin.
Our worst fears have been realised and dd has been offered the local comp that has a reputation for bullying and unhappy children leaving mid term.

Please can someone just give an outline of what to do if you're not happy with your choice. I know I can appeal and I've gathered it's a lengthy process. What I need to know is , what should I be doing tomorrow , who should I be calling , what information can/should I be gathering for the appeals process ? I just don't have a clue where to begin, who I can speak to and what information I need to move forward with an appeal.

Also She's been placed on a waiting list for her first choice , can I call the school and ask what position she's in and how fast the waiting list is likely to move ? Can I call the other school and ask to be placed on the waiting list for those too?

It all seems so complicated and painful and apparently only a 25% chance of winning.

Just so gutted for my dd

I am so dreading seeing her little face when I tell her she's got the school of her nightmares.

And before someone say it, it’s been a couple of years not decades

I would definitely appeal- the bar is not as high as primary school, you need to make a case for why that school will suit your child more. Look at clubs, GCSE subjects, develop a sudden love of Mandarin, if your child is a skiing champion and the preferred school has a ski team but your offered school doesn't then put it down. Try to get extra evidence from other people- the school offers Spanish, your dd goes to Spanish club then get a letter from Spanish club leader. Talk to parents with children already in the school and ask them about the school. Even stuff such as your child wants to be a scientist and the other school teaches with subject specialist teachers from yr8 whereas other school only does from yr9. Small bricks of evidence to build your appeal.

It will still depend on how totally rammed the school is. Some schools will be willing to squeeze an extra few pupils in because they will get more cash for each child or maybe they are wanting to expand so eager to show their school can manage more pupils. Other schools will be in very old buildings and already relying on some students being off sick sometimes to cram them into the classroom. One of dd's classes the teacher can't sit down if they are all in school.

Following anxiously.

Ds1 got into school choice 5 Was not a school we would choose. Saving graces are it's not awful & it's not hugely far away. Was dreading getting catchment awful school, so relieved not to get that.

1st choice school has languages/international as its Category 4 criteria. When I spoke to them before submitting the form they said that last year all children from Cat 4 got in & some from cat 5. Ds1 I think had 1 point out of a possible 20 on their cat 4 form. So thinking I need to contact them later to see what's what.

Any advice gratefully received though!

There's an awful lot of bollocks spouted on this thread at the moment regarding appeals. Some of which could wrongly deter an OP (falsely suggesting appeals for secondary can only be allowed if an error in process etc) plus some offering false hope (get MP to snap their fingers and ta-dah, or find the secret group of people who make the allocation decisions)

OP - accept the place, ask to go on waiting lists, ask admissions for details on appealing. Then when you're ready have a look at threads on here about appeals. In a nutshell you're making the case as why your child should be admitted to desired school as opposed to keeping numbers at PAN. So focus on what matches - your dc does Italian, preferred school offers Italian from year 7 etc

However, hopefully waiting lists will move without need of appeal. good luck!

I'm afraid a lot of the advice on this thread is incorrect.

Your MP can't help. There is no point going to them.

Similarly, there is no point going straight to the head of children's services or anyone else at the LA unless you have clear evidence that a mistake has been made. They can't help either.

Contrary to what several people have said on here, you do not have to show that the Admissions Code has been breached or that a mistake has been made in order to win an appeal. If either of those things is true you have a very strong case but it is also possible to win a secondary school appeal by showing that the disadvantage to your child from not being admitted to this school outweighs any problems the school will face from having to cope with an additional pupil.

Note that this is about disadvantage to your child, not problems for you. The appeal panel may be sympathetic to the problems a parent may face in getting children to schools that are miles apart but you will not win an appeal on that basis. To win on the basis of children being sent to separate schools you would need professional evidence to show that your children have a stronger need than others to be at the same school.

Note that you are appealing for the school you want, not against the school you've been offered. The allocated school's reputation for bullying won't help. If your child goes there, is bullied and the school fail to take effective action that would be something you could use at appeal but at this stage the appeal panel is going to assume that your child won't be bullied.

You need to show that the school you want offers things that are particularly relevant to your child that they would miss out on if they go to the allocated school. Do they offer subjects that aren't available at the allocated school? What about extra-curricular activities? You need to identify what is different about this school and relate it to your child. So, for example, if your child is musically talented and the school you want has lots of extra-curricular musical activities, that is very relevant.

As one person up thread has said, you can appeal for as many schools as you want. You are likely to get a different appeal panel for each school so more appeals increases your chances that one will succeed.

Regarding the waiting list, it is in operation now but there won't be any movement yet. You should be on the waiting list for any school that you named as a higher preference than the school you got. Make sure that is the case. Some LAs limit the number of waiting lists you can be on, others allow you to be on as many waiting lists as you want. If you want to go on waiting lists for schools you didn't apply for you will need to check your council's policy on this. They may not want to tell you your position on the waiting list and it is unlikely they will want to speculate about how much movement there will be.

If you give more details of your case and any arguments you might want to use in your appeal, I and other admission experts on here will be happy to help.

Finally, I know you don't want your daughter to go there but you should accept the place you've been offered. If you don't the LA is not under any obligation to come up with another place for her. Rejecting the place will not move you up any waiting lists and it won't help you at appeal - indeed, it could damage your case at appeal.

The bullying could be an isolated incident you are just going off what you have heard to support your own prejudices (or snobbery?!) against this school and it's pupils

All schools have an element of bullying - it's how it's handled that's important

What makes your DD any different to the other kids who have been allocated that school??? You can't ALL appeal - some children will have to go to the school

@fogginghell @confusedofengland listen to @prh47bridge... he's an expert on this as you'll see if you search other appeal threads!

Reputations are often undeservedly and conjecture rather than accurate reflection.
Build a positive picture for your daughter instead of driving her towards panic and anxiety.

Take a deep breath.

Accept the offer.

Make sure you're on the waiting list of each school you prefer (this can include schools that weren't on your initial choices list).

Think about appealing for your preferred schools. The posters above saying you can only appeal if an error was made are not correct. But do get some sound appeals advice (there will be threads on here later) about how to put an appeal together.

Try and think/talk more positively about the school your dd has been allocated. She may end up attending, and it will make it so much worse for her if she dreads it.

I'm in Essex. Email said "You do not have to contact us to accept offered place" and
"Your child's name will be placed on the waiting list for any Essex school which was a higher preference than the school offered" & information on these will be available from 18th March.

keep hopeful and keep on the waiting lists. there is always some movement on waiting lists even in July - even in September for some schools as they will only find out a child isn't coming when they don't turn up in week 1. when a place becomes available that late, often the families in positions 1-5 on the waiting list turn the place down as their child has settled to the alternative school they were offered and it works be too much disruption.

so unless you have actual grounds for appeal, keep calm and keep hoping.

Phr47bridges gives sound advice, only thing I'd argue against is that you will get a different panel for each appeal if you stick in an appeal for all schools you fancy. This will be dependant on the size of your council - or indeed their pool of volunteers. The Panel could still find this information out from any paper work that is submitted by the school body so bear that in mind - these people aren't stupid and have generally been through the process of interviewing parents many times.

Just be honest, think of. Areal tangible reason why they must go to the school you want them too, buses, friend groups or I've heard this or that rumour about the allocated school are often viewed poorly In my experience ... remember you won't be the only one appealing most likely if the school is as bad as you say. Some appeals run on for a full week there are that many parents - so make your reasons true and reasonable.

Forget contacting the MP director of schools/ whatever their title will be in you LA. This is poor and incorrect advice.

As for sitting and deciding if your child gets in or not, the only Time it would be a group of people and not just a list of names ordered by the criteria would be if the governing body were the admission body eg faith school. If it's a LA controlled no one is sitting there picking them out like X factor, I'd also like to hope that a GB wouldn't do this, but I'm no expert on this but i would argue why have an admissions criteria if that is true ... I don't believe they are corrupt but accept it could be possible.

Don’t panic there’s a lot of movement with waiting lists etc. My DDs (twins) didn’t get their first choice to begin with. They were eventually both offered a place In mid May. Be aware that they could also go down the list for a while though if someone moves in nester the school!

And def speak very positively about the school she has been offered despite your reservations, although at 11 most of the kids are well aware what schools are good/bad

My father sits on the appeals panel they are scrupulous and not corrupt! He is a retired senior teacher it’s unpaid.

Speak positively about the school. That’s the best thing you can do today

After doing a lot of research in our area I didn’t bother appealing as they very rarely work unless you’ve got something outstanding to add

I have put a massive positive spin on it (as I do with everything to do with the dc) and told her this morning and luckily there were no tears. She is a very reserved and quiet girl by nature and she very clearly said but I don't want to go to X... she said the waiting list would be pointless because there would be loads of people ahead of her ..I reassured her about the waiting list, told her I'll try to find out what position she is in on the list, and to not worry because things could change between now and September. I also asked her why she didn't want to go school x, but as usual she said 'I just don't'. I know this is due to scary stories she's heard though, from other kids and their elder siblings experiences there.

The school of our choice is new and this September will be accepting its second cohort of year 7, with only the previous year 7 being present at the school . I believed that this school would have been perfect for dd for having just one year above her in the school as she's so tiny in size compared to the rest of her peers and she really does find older and bigger children quite intimidating. The school we've been offered is huge (1900 students including sixth form) . I am so worried about dd given the size of the school and given her reserved and timid nature.

I don't think these are solid grounds for appeal however , and I just feel as though it would be pointless going through appeals based on this reasoning alone. I could get written statements from her teachers who could state that the school of our choice would be better suited to her based on this reason (she has got a history of teachers noting how quiet and reserved she is and how she doesn't join in with larger group discussions but is fine one on one etc).

Dd is working at a higher level both in English and maths and is a bright girl - I feel like all the effort I've put in to getting her to this stage and working on her self confidence etc is at risk now somehow, although I can't rationalise this beyond the fact that it's a huge school and dd is at her best in smaller group contexts. It's possibly more gut instinct that this school is not the right fit for dd. My (possibly irrational) fears as a mum is that she starts this school and it just swallows her up, she encounters bullying, or she just won't flourish due to the size of the school and how busy and hectic it will be. My heart trips over how physically, she is so delicate and small, by far the the shortest and skinniest in her class and a very reserved and shy nature together with her size just brings my heart to my mouth.

I can understand many many mums feel the way I do about this whole situation and my dd isn't more entitled or special than anyone else's child, so please be gentle with your replies - I've actually taken this a lot harder than I thought I would and there is also an element of guilt in there for me - for what, I don't really know. All sorts of thoughts are in my head; we could have chosen a better area to live secondary schools wise, I could have eaten more during my pregnancy to make dd bigger and therefore stronger (this one is ridiculous but it's still there in my head), I could have tutored her from a younger age to get her into the grammars, and on and on and on.

I don't think these are solid grounds for appeal however

If it is just your word you probably won't succeed on this basis unless the school's case to refuse admission is incredibly weak. Evidence from teachers may help. Evidence from a medical professional would be even better if you can get it.

As this is a relatively new school they may be doing innovative things around the curriculum - including subjects that the comprehensive doesn't offer, taking different approaches to teaching subjects, additional extra-curricular activities, special activities aimed at those who are doing really well (or really badly) in certain subjects, etc. Find out as much as you can about things they are doing that are different to the comprehensive. If you can relate anything they are doing to your daughter's needs it will strengthen your case.

@fogginghell, I can’t offer any advice to you but sending you my best wishes. Don’t beat yourself up about this, you’ve done your best for your child - good luck xx

Whatever else you do, do not decline the place you've been offered. Any school is better than no school.

I'm sure others will have advice re appealing and putting your daughter down on waiting lists for other schools.

Main thing: don't panic. There is so much movement between now and September that it is not a certainty that your daughter will have to go to the school you don't want. Good luck.

I don't know about appeals etc but in my experience timid, smaller kids were protected and not picked on at school.

It's not very big and clever to be seen bullying the little kids is it? She'll be fine

having a sibling at a school rates high on the calculations due to school runs. I worked in admissions some years back

I’d agree with this.

My son’s junior school is a strong feeder for the popular secondary.
My husband is a tradesman contracted to the popular school. The PA told him, ‘do you want me to have a word, mention your son’s name?’ I presume she meant to the council admissions.

She didn’t as far as we know. That alone appalled me that she might have that ‘power’.

That’s a separate issue anyway. Point is, my son out popular school as first choice but was offered second. His older sibling is at second choice school already. So I’d say they offloaded him to second choice school because of the sibling link. Everyone else in his class got popular school allocation. All his friends anyway. All his friends have older sibs at popular school.

having a sibling at a school rates high on the calculations due to school runs. I worked in admissions some years back

It is usually but not invariably high on the admissions criteria. It is completely irrelevant for appeals.

So I’d say they offloaded him to second choice school because of the sibling link

They aren't allowed to do that. If your son qualified for a place at his first choice under their admission criteria they are required, by law, to offer it to him. They can't decide to offer your second choice instead just because he has a sibling there. However, if he didn't qualify for your first choice the fact he had a sibling at your second choice meant he would almost certainly be offered that.

@prh I recall you are an expert on school admissions stuff so I respect your view greatly Thankyou.

It’s just confusing because everyone else in his class of 30 bar one kid who wanted a different school anyway, got the school my son was refused. Many of those kids have elder siblings at the school my son wanted, including the 2 sets of twins in my son’s class.

So it seems bizarre my son out of 30 kids wasn’t offered the school they all were allocated.