Any 11+ SWLon success from kids who aren’t tutored?

[ZebrABC]

I’m only hearing of success from state primary or prep sch for kids who’ve been tutored this year. Including those in state in catch-up classes getting further than naturally bright top of class who haven’t had tutor help. And one not tutored private top of class not getting through to interview stage. Is bright state-ed DC better off in state secondary or should I tutor for 11+? Are all private school kids now tutored in SWLon?

Our son has never been tutored. His prep is quite laid back. We think it is a waste of time given that electronic resources provides flexibility and are so good these days. Never mind about the cost of tutoring. He was given free access to Bofa by the school and then 2 weeks before the ISEB pre-test, we thought that might not be enough and also subscribed to Atom and Pretest Plus. We found Pretest Plus expensive and not great. He liked Atom because he tells me it actually teaches you how to do a maths problem you got wrong. DH occasionally explains why he got certain questions wrong but DS usually figures them out himself.

Thx, so helpful and I hadn’t heard of those. Is he succeeding in 11+ this year? Have been told

It’s hard to be non tutored as it’s mostly about technique.

@m00rfarm so private select technique over talent?

Btw not saying private doesn’t include talented Of course - just wondering benefits of tutoring for DC as might be better pursuing music, arts, reading, writing, team sports (& socialising) than tutoring.

Similar to OZo6728. At a private primary school.They say they will prepare children for the 11+ ,and there is no need to tutor, but they encourage online support such as BOFA.
Their focus on the 11+ together with lots of homework (especially last summer) meant we did not feel the need or want to pay for extra tutoring!. DS has had interview offers so far this year from Hampton and KGS.
However we know some parents have paid for extra tutoring regardless.
Obviously state primary focus is different and you might well need extra guidance and support in the process.

It's completely different applying from a private primary whose raison d'être is getting kids into selective secondaries and a state primary (which is aiming to educate all pupils of all abilities to become secondary-ready). So I'd ignore those that say 'oh we did nothing' if the kids are at a prep school. I agree that it's madness to have to pay a tutor on top of the fees (though loads do).

My kids have got into a variety of top secondaries from a state primary where over 60% of the kids were FSM and no other children were applying to private schools. They're bright but not exceptional. However, there's no way on earth they'd have got in without an hour of tutoring per week for at least 18 months, with its associated homework. They wouldn't have even covered the maths necessary in school so unless they're so exceptional they can tackle maths concepts they've never seen before, yes you need tutoring.

However, it was only an hour a week plus they had very little school homework so it doesn't exclude hobbies. I do know, however, children that have long journeys to private primaries, with a lot of homework, who have a tutor for maths, one for English, one for reasoning etc.

No. Most intelligent kids can answer the questions. It is knowing how much time to spend on each, calculating how much time is left and assessing which questions can be answered most quickly for maximum marks. Recognising types of questions. My son had three weeks intensive tutoring before his 11plus and passed. Before that he would not have passed, despite knowing how to answer each question.

Oh I'd also say that it's diminishing returns for tutoring/exam practice. Beyond a certain level, it makes little difference but the bare minimum is vital.

If your child is in a state school and you’re planning to sit the 11+ either for grammars or indies, you’ll need to prep. You don’t need a tutor but realistically they do need to do practice tests and interview practice. Many kids also benefit from a bit of help with creative writing.
Like any other exam, no point rocking up completely unprepared. 10yo are only little kids and lack exam experience and technique. They benefit hugely from learning to manage their time better, work under pressure and hone technique for different questions.
Actual exams can also be overwhelming with large crowds of people. It’s good to do things like ‘familiarisation tests’. Sutton grammars offer those.

DS got into Hampton 10+ from state with tutoring once a week during term time for about a year before. Rationale was would be worth spending bit of money and time then if it meant we could avoid the 11+.
DD did term time tutoring for an hour a week in year 5 but we stopped it at end of y5 and decided to do prep ourselves with bond books. Didn’t seem worth the money, her English and maths were strong anyway and easy enough to practice VR / NVR ourselves. Currently waiting to hear from the 3 schools we entered her for, so will see if that approach worked!
All kids will be ‘tutored’ to some extent whether it’s parents or someone else. I guess we did a bit of both

DD1 got KGS 10+ from state primary, no tutoring.
Home bond book practice.
It is possible, that’s the beauty of trying the 10+, no way would I risk the 11+ from state primary without a tutor.
But prep kids also being tutored is crazy. What are you paying for?

Thx so much this is very useful for my DC. I wonder if Year 6 in DC state school is unusual but seems all the talent is heading to local state this year. Again this morning the successes are from those DCs who are introverted, tutored but were behind top kids in class. Not sure I want that 11+ secondary for DC.

It depends on what you mean by tutoring. Tutoring=preparation; for some tutoring=paid someone to prepare child; for some tutoring=prepared child myself (e.g. by a parent). Some 'tutoring' is done in private preps.

If the question is do children pass the exam without preparing (and by that I mean no stuff on VR or NVR in school, nothing on exam technique, and nothing beyond the learning on Maths and English, that they do in the classroom everyday), then I would guess that in 99.5% of cases the answer is probably no. But in fairness, how many people would consider it wise to sit an exam with zero preparation? It doesn't matter how bright you are, it is advisable (and indeed, in my view good discipline) to prep for an exam.

If the question is do you have to pay to prep for the exam (and that includes paying for private primary schools that do some prep), then the answer is no. However, you do need to have the sort of relationship with your child that you can sit down with them, and get them to work towards something, and then get them to do practice papers or homework. You also have to have the time to do it.

I would say that is why some parents (who are able to) outsource the prep element to an external tutor or tutor group, or to a private primary, or to a combination of the above.

Thx @hooliesmoolies
Talent at DC’s school who were all unsuccessful did do home prep for all papers. I’m guessing a tutor provides extra technique teaching & says when they’ve reached required level for each school they’re sitting and builds up over a year or so so success guaranteed. School are surprised over which kids selected during 11+ given the difference in actual ability they see.

Independent schools vary as widely as state ZebrA, so it depends on which ones you’re talking about really. Also not everyone has “local state” in their area, so the whole decision is area-specific. But generally, it’s like anything else - would you rock up to an important job interview unprepared? No, probably not. So it’s about finding the right school for the individual child and then familiarising them for the process - eg, if that school don’t test VR / NVR then don’t do that, obviously, but what are they looking for? Good comprehension skills maybe, in which case do they need to answer in clear, concise sentences, or is the paper multi-choice? What will the maths paper be like - will there be any reasoning-type questions thrown in (in which case prepare your child not to panic at the unfamiliar). What about the interviews - what might they ask? Etc etc.

@ZebrABC London preps seem a lot more competitive. We are not living in London now but applied to only three London schools, SPS, Westminster and KCS. No backup schools at this stage. Through to interview stage for the first two schools. Will find out about KCS next Tuesday. i don’t like tutoring as the classes take up time and that is time away from family and play-dates during weekends. But this is a very personal view. I don’t think DS’ prep is doing much beyond making them through the Bofa tests during school hours. Or so I have been told. I have a full time job so I really have no time or interest to micro-manage his studies. But I must say that my son is in the top set and has a scholarship from his school.

@ZebrABC To answer your question, no, not considering state schools. Nothing against them except that when we moved back to the UK, we didn’t know if we could get a place in our preferred state primary. And as for grammar, we just left it too late because I had no idea what were the deadlines for registrations. The other reason is that I am not familiar with the state system.

My heart is telling me DC better off in state based on Year 6 in DC school & neighbouring schools. Private feels like pressure on technique, state frees talent and interests and people DC is friends with. This is for my DC not all. So it seems no one has succeeded in 11+ without a tutor. I feel sad for the talent and hope they understand.

Also, I think there is a danger sometimes of pupils being identified as “talent” and getting complacent in certain schools. I saw this recently at GCSE level - a friend’s son who had been told he was “exceptional” right through his (outstanding) secondary was going around for months announcing he was predicted all “9” grades. He did no revision because he thought his talent should speak for itself, so he came out with a few 7s but mainly 6s and he couldn’t understand it because in his mind (and everyone else’s) he was known as being “top.”

@glittercats oh no. Yes I agree. Year 6 at DC’s school not complacent and lovely. Probably happier together at local state anyway.

I hope he is doing ok at his sixth form.

ZebrA - the “technique” is only to get into the schools - once they’re in they’re as free as anyone else It’s like if an older child wants to get into Oxbridge; there’s no point in believing you can just breeze in and declare “here I am - talent! Can’t you tell?” You would understand it’s highly-competitive and there will inevitably be a few extra hoops to jump through.
In some “top” London independents there may be over a thousand pupils going for 100 places. Many children of great “talent” in all sorts of areas will be turned down, tutored or not. It’s brutal.
Maybe the lesser “talent” children as you see them have simply aimed for more realistic schools and this is why they got interviews / places?

But yes, if you’ve got a great state option locally, then that’s an advantage for sure!

Maybe I shouldn’t use the word talent (and no I don’t with DC) but I refer to top groups in school and local and national prize winners, encyclopaedic brains. Kids you know are way ahead of others. They’re applying to the same places. It really does sound brutal.