Any 11+ SWLon success from kids who aren’t tutored?

[ZebrABC]

I’m only hearing of success from state primary or prep sch for kids who’ve been tutored this year. Including those in state in catch-up classes getting further than naturally bright top of class who haven’t had tutor help. And one not tutored private top of class not getting through to interview stage. Is bright state-ed DC better off in state secondary or should I tutor for 11+? Are all private school kids now tutored in SWLon?

I understand what you mean ZebrA. The thing with the 11 plus is they are dealing with such huge numbers of children, they have to have some method to select and no system will ever be perfect. A very bright child may not be great at writing an effective short story in 20 mins, for instance? But if that’s what’s being tested, then that’s what they have to do. There’s a technique to this that a 10/11 year old wouldn’t know unless somebody tells them. Once they’re in the school, they can follow whatever their talents are, obviously, but this is why children sit around 5 schools in average. It’s to hedge their bets.

state frees talent and interests

Independent schools have 4x the funding. That goes to fantastic resources and opportunities like bands, orchestras, theatre groups, lots of sport, fab art facilities etc. Have you visited any schools? It should be dead obvious where the opportunities for developing interests are.

Unfortunately, I think our system has become too technique (or strategic) in the way exams are created and delivered. So technique is important for all exams (11+/GCSE/A-level). Looking at my kids school, most of the 'talent' that was tutored, got in to everything. One other 'talent' wasn't tutored and got in too. Of the other kids, there were tutored and not tutored. None of those that weren't tutored got in. Some of those that were did. Broadly, I think that those that got places (or who are likely to get places) is representative of the levels of the kids, with a few that you might not have expected who did. But for me, talent is limited in value. With a very few exceptions (fewer than 1 in each primary class in the country), it is a combination of talent and hard work that is going to get you in. And I actually think that is broadly reasonable, because being able to work hard is an very important factor in future success.

Having said that, there are so many random variables that impact on success or not for school admissions at 10 but that do not determine future success (how they feel on the day, how 'mature' they have been in their attitude for studying, how bright they are, how hard working they are, how much support they have or haven't been given, whether they have even been given the opportunity to prep and/or try). That is why so many kids who could get in don't get in, and why excellent options in non-selective schools SHOULD be available to all parents and children.

Thx so much this is a really helpful discussion. So bright mind + technique + hard-work + maturity/humility + luck + resilience. Interesting private have 4 x funding. Where we are 11+ schools also have downsides of single sex, smaller grounds, sports facilities off site and longer commute.. and also not all get to join in in drama, sports clubs. I guess so much is down to the individual.

The schools are very good at choosing the children who will thrive in the environments they offer. It is sad if that is not your child, but to dismiss those children who are chosen as having succeeded because of tutoring at the expense of 'the talent' seems a little unkind.

Listen, i’ll be honest- my kids are in private school and every single child there is tutored. Every single one starting either in year 4 (about 10-20% of kids) and continuing in year 5 (100% by the end of year 5). The same applies to other private schools in the area- i happen to have a lot of friends in other independents. Some of them are tutored more heavily than the others (7 hours a day vs 1 or 2 hours) but there are just no exceptions to the rule. Don’t ask me why- it is just the way it is sadly. Some even start tutoring in year 2.

@notmynom forgive me, I’m sorry. It was not my intention. It is observations from this year 6 I am hearing to help me understand what is best for my DC. All DCs do well to work hard and try. And their success is not at the expense of brighter minds of course as you say you hope they all end up in the better environment for them. Just interesting this year the balance seems on technique and that guides my decision: if I wish DC to do 11+ I must find a tutor. If we don’t, we won’t.

@paribus thx for your openness, so helpful.

My DC all went to a non-selective prep (4-11) and none of them were tutored at all. There wouldn’t have been time to be honest - they just did the homework the prep gave; did the practise papers in the school and that was it. The school were very good at guiding you towards suitable schools to apply to, making sure you always had at least one “safe option”. There were few surprises in terms of 11 plus offers, but if your child will not get into a school, they will tell you and, in some cases, refuse to write a reference if they believe you are setting up a child to fail.

The couple of times I tried a tutor it was totally counterproductive because they were teaching in a different style to their own agenda and just confusing the DC. It was too much, very frustrating, and a total waste of time and money.

Also a lot of tutors have no idea about the types of papers for specific schools. They are students or random persons trying to make some extra cash. Agencies will send anyone your way, They actually make more work and faff because you end up having to explain what the schools are looking for to them. Unless a tutor can demonstrate up-to-date relevant knowledge and come in ready to hit the ground running, you are wasting your money, in my view. The tutoring industry is a racket, quite often, that takes advantage of anxious parents.

I don't know where you are glittercats- we are in SW London and it is like this here.

Very interesting discussion. I think the consensus is that most kids who excel are tutored. Actually DS asked for a tutor too and said all his friends in the top set are tutored. I said no. I still think he is exaggerating. I don’t think he actually asked every kid in the class. The situation doesn’t seem ideal since it indicates that the schools (even preps) are not really delivering. Weekend classes just doesn’t sound right!

I'm SW London. DS went through the process last year and DD is doing it this year. Neither was tutored. I agree with glittercats that the key is to target suitable schools.

Both my kids are state educated and both passed their 11+ without tutoring. We familiarised them with past papers ( free) and a 3 month subscription to an online practice program ( BOFA) that cost £16.
If they have a natural aptitude, they don't need tutoring ( just familiarisation), If they don't then grammar isn't the right place for them. Hope that helps.

We’re in SW London too Paribus. I’ve had 3 go through the system. I’d say tutoring was slightly more common by the time my last one came to do 11 plus, but still no more than 20% and, even then, you’re talking maybe one hour a week. They were given 2/3 maths papers a week to do under timed conditions for homework (on top of doing others at school); it was the same with English comprehensions and short stories. These were all past papers for schools they were applying to. It was non-stop. They all did BOFA. They all had VR / NVR sessions. They did a bit of interview practise.

What more can a tutor do? We didn’t need any more practise papers. The two tutors I tried - well, one showed up with no resources whatsoever. She was an Engineerimg student. She didn’t even know where G&L or SPGS were! The other seemed to think she could tutor based on the fact her son went to SPS in the 1990s. I mean, anyone can show up and go through maths with a ten-year old. I had to explain that things had changed in the last 25 years.

I guess if you get a tutor who is up to date or specialist for some requirement, then they’re worth their weight in gold. But otherwise, you might as well print off some past papers from school websites and do it yourself.

@Notmynom congrats on your DD she’s the first success I have heard for a non tutored child in 2020! Big difference between prep and state prime - multiple timed papers for homework would really help 11+

Well, i have completely different experience. And noone i know in SW hires a student glittercats- everyone gets the agency, checks and crosschecks references, diplomas, etc. And yes, tutors are familiar with the schools, come prepared, etc- and most are already booked in year 5. Try finding a good tutor in year 6, even through the agency, and yiu’llkbow what i mean. We must be living in different SWs :). I personally think it is bonkers considering the school fees we are already paying but the sad reality is just that- the competition is so fierce that even private school plus tutoring plus a bright child does not guarantee that your child will get in. The system is not taking anything into equation- my friends’ children had to sit exams having 40 degrees fever because the school refused to change the date for them. The sheer notion that you can somehow predict who is going to succeed at 18 by testing them at 10 is ridiculous- yet they still do it! The vicious circle of oversubscribed schools, tutoring, stressed parents and unhappy children continues. Everyone is busy but noone is happy, ergh?

State schools aren’t allowed to prep for 11+ and they won’t give children any practice papers. Prep schools, as the name suggests, are thereto prep for senior school.

My dd went from a SW London state primary to a selective independent (and also got a grammar place) last year without having had a tutor. But we did spend about an hour a week in Y5 (a bit more in the summer holidays before Y6) teaching her the maths that her school hadn’t covered, exam technique, how to approach VR/NVR - all the stuff that preps do that primaries don’t.

So, it depends if you count that as tutoring.

Well done to DD @FlumePlume last year I had thought we would do the same but it seems in 2020 this has not been successful so for 2021 a tutor is imperative if DC chooses to try for 11+ schools. Is the 2020 SWLondon standard especially high? Are the exams different in nature? I see a DC has tried for SWLon from Hertfordshire which is a big catchment for 100 places and indeed a long distance from school friends.

ZebrA - could you say vaguely what area you are in and which independent schools you’re thinking of applying to? They do vary a lot and yes, all the exams will be different formats.

I remember going on an Open Day (I think it was LU) and the head said that for children in state schools, they do recommend some tutoring, Not because standards are lower, but because the schedule of teaching the curriculum may vary - eg they are aiming to finish the curriculum in time for the SAT tests in the summer if Year 6, rather than focusing on getting through it all in time for the 11 plus.

Of course there are children who get into super-selective from state. I can give LU as one example as I have DC there and half the intake into Year 7 are from state. But I think it’s a mistake to see things only in terms of “state v private” or “tutor v non tutor” because there’s so many other factors that can affect a child’s chances - above all, how involved and informed parents are. For instance, my neighbours” DC got into a selective independent from a state school with no tutoring, but, then again, both parents are Oxbridge educated and she’s a SAHM who made this her focus, so they had more time and know-how than the average parent.

Hi @glittercats we are looking at co-educational schools inside M25, not inner London, in SWLon/Surrey. Finding all these threads about 11+ pressures, worry and disappointment (I feel for those involved) are not a path for us and our state alternative feels more attractive.

The co-eds often tend to be a bit less difficult to get into than single sex indies.

For academic co-Ed options you’ve got Kingston Grammar and Epsom College. Claremont Fan is coed with a mix of abilities. St John’s Leatherhead is another option. For less academic children, there’s Ewell Castle. If you’re more towards Cheam or Sutton, then you’ll be on a coach route for Caterham School (academic), South Cheam also on a route for Reigate Grammar (academic) but it’ll also be easy for Royal Russell.

So there are plenty of schools at different levels of difficulty to choose from.

@JoJoSM2 do you really think co-educational less difficult than single sex? Why would people chose single sex these days?

If you look at the % of grades 7-9 at GCSE, the highest performers in the country are single sex schools and many parents prefer them. Westminster or Wimbledon High etc have a lot more applicants and are therefore a lot more competitive than the top co-ed schools.

People do put much weight on little differences in percentages. I had heard co-educational much more difficult in SWLon as families move to more integrated learning.